Combimate water "softener"—opinions?

[lizzie]

@JSHarris I know that - he asked what difference halcyan made to me.

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm still happy to test samples to check whether or not the hardness is reduced by the Halcyan unit.  Probably not worth it though, as they've already admitted that it doesn't, despite this claim on the FAQ section of their website (how they get away with this under the ASA rules I really don't know):

 

Quote

Q.        Will the Halcyan Water Conditioner soften my water?

A.         Yes. Because the minerals in the water change their shape and electrical charge the surface tension in the water drops. It’s this change that gives you softer water.

 

FWIW, this is just plain nonsense.  There's absolutely no scientific basis for stating that "minerals change shape". 

 

What is it even supposed to mean? 

 

Surface tension has nothing at all to do with hardness, either, it's caused by the cohesive forces that act to hold water molecules together as a liquid being unbalanced at a surface.  In simple terms, a molecule in the centre of a body of water experiences equal forces in all directions from it's neighbouring water molecules, whereas a molecule at a surface only experiences forces from those molecules below and to the side, as there are none above.  This tends to cause water droplets  to pull into a sphere, just as it also causes a meniscus on a open water surface.  It has nothing at all to do with hardness, which is caused by calcium and magnesium compounds in solution.

 

I know that you are happy with your Halcyan unit, and that's great.  My issue is that they make claims that it softens water, when it very clearly does not.

 

 

 

 

[lizzie]

@JSHarris next time you are this way call in and have a coffee and if you would like also take a look at the device installed and by all means a test of the water.  Be very nice to meet you!

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks, I don't for one moment doubt that you're happy with the unit.  it's the fact that it is not a water softener that bugs me, as they claim that it does soften water when they have said here that it doesn't.

[Cpd]

This thread (as great as it is) reminds me of my time spent with a religious community.... I was very intrigued by their way of life and was trying to see if I had any give in my very atheist tendencies...... one day I was standing on top off a hill with the leaders wife and there was a beautiful rainbow...... the lady asked if I knew how a rainbow was created, yes I said and started telling her how   A rainbow is a meteorological phenomenon that is caused by reflection, refraction and dispersion of light in water droplets resulting in a spectrum of light appearing in the sky. It takes the form of a multicoloured circular arc....  she looked at me like I was daft....... no no no she said and proceeded to explain that  God said to Noah and to his sons with him, “Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: .... I looked at her like a stunned mullet. 

 

This is all in good faith or good humour ..... whatever 

 

‘I enjoyed thread. 

 

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, Cpd said:

. I looked at her like a stunned mullet. 

 

Quote of the day ..!! ?

[Willster]

6 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I have a Combimate, where you have to change some magic marbles in once a year. The kettle does not fur up but there is still residue where cold water evaporates such as in the tray of the fridge water dispenser, in spite of the fridge also having a water filter.

 

5 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The Combimate is a very different product to the Halcyan, and uses phosphate dosing, which is another well-proven way to reduce the effects of hard water.  It doesn't remove the calcium from the water, but stops calcium carbonate from "sticking" to surfaces and causing scale.

 

I think I may have found the solution - it's considerably cheaper than the other options and compact in size ?

 

In terms of reducing the effects of hard water, it's possible the Halcyon may be achieving the same result (I believe @lizzie's observations and doubt it's just a placebo effect, but I accept Halcyon's science is dodgy at best). The Combimate costs £171 and uses a "well-proven" technique. That's good enough for me.

[Jeremy Harris]

The Halcyan claims to work in a very different way to any other "water treatment device", and is definitely very different to the Combimate. 

 

The Combimate doesn't soften hard water, so there is still just as much calcium and magnesium in the water that's been treated, but it does stop precipitation of calcium carbonate on the inside of pipes, kettles etc.

 

There is a running cost associated with the Combimate, as the phosphate beads need to be replenished every now and again.  I don't know how often this needs to be done, or what the cost is, but perhaps @Mr Punter may be able give an idea as to running cost.  I doubt it's very high, as the quantity of phosphate dissolved into the water only needs to be pretty small for it to work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

Just now, Willster said:

The Combimate costs £171 and uses a "well-proven" technique. That's good enough for me.

 

Ouch..!! Siliphos is available from other suppliers ... 

 

Try Wiltec.de for example that fits a standard 10” housing, or Sterner on eBay

 

Both need a housing but they are change of £15 and you can put a pair in parallel for less than half the price of a Combimate

[Willster]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

 

Ouch..!! Siliphos is available from other suppliers ... 

 

Try Wiltec.de for example that fits a standard 10” housing, or Sterner on eBay

 

Both need a housing but they are change of £15 and you can put a pair in parallel for less than half the price of a Combimate

 

Even better, thanks @PeterW ?

[Willster]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

There is a running cost associated with the Combimate, as the phosphate beads need to be replenished every now and again.  I don't know how often this needs to be done, or what the cost is, but perhaps @Mr Punter may be able give an idea as to running cost.  I doubt it's very high, as the quantity of phosphate dissolved into the water only needs to be pretty small for it to work.

 

Combimate's refill is £27.50, though I assume the other products @PeterW mentioned offer cheaper options.

[dpmiller]

https://www.bes.co.uk/cistermiser-combimate-dual-fit-scale-reducer-17067

a lot less than £171

[JoeLondon]

22 hours ago, Cpd said:

This thread (as great as it is) reminds me of my time spent with a religious community.... I was very intrigued by their way of life and was trying to see if I had any give in my very atheist tendencies...... one day I was standing on top off a hill with the leaders wife and there was a beautiful rainbow...... the lady asked if I knew how a rainbow was created, yes I said and started telling her how   A rainbow is a meteorological phenomenon that is caused by reflection, refraction and dispersion of light in water droplets resulting in a spectrum of light appearing in the sky. It takes the form of a multicoloured circular arc....  she looked at me like I was daft....... no no no she said and proceeded to explain that  God said to Noah and to his sons with him, “Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: .... I looked at her like a stunned mullet. 

 

This is all in good faith or good humour ..... whatever 

 

‘I enjoyed thread. 

 

 

Very useful thread for a newcomer like me. I spent some time following this the discussion and found it fascinating that there is a serious lack of scientific knowledge for the general public. As I am also coming from a science background, I can only explain some of the phenomena by the placebo effect.  

 

I currently have installed a dual cylinder ion exchange softener and it does make life a lot better, especially in terms of cleaning. One thing that I want to raise if that while have the softener hooked up to the main water inlet, I have a bypass tap just for drinking water as I have familial hypertension which I need to avoid excess intake of Na⁺.  Even though the Na⁺ ion left in the soften water should be very low, it is probably best for some people like me to drink less of it.  But so far, I am extremely happy with the efficiency of my softener (same brand as fellow JSHarris' one).

[Mr Punter]

I have the whole house version of the Combimate, (cost £135.80 inc delivery and a years Combiphos) where you fill the container completely with the Combiphos  balls. They are £25 per 800g delivered and need changing once a year.

[richi]

On 20/02/2019 at 22:15, Willster said:

 

 

I think I may have found the solution - it's considerably cheaper than the other options and compact in size ?

 

In terms of reducing the effects of hard water, it's possible the Halcyon may be achieving the same result (I believe @lizzie's observations and doubt it's just a placebo effect, but I accept Halcyon's science is dodgy at best). The Combimate costs £171 and uses a "well-proven" technique. That's good enough for me.

 

Another satisfied Combinmate user here. Indeed, I think I started this thread years ago ?

[richi]

@lizzie and @JSHarris to be absolutely fair to Halcyan:

1. Their marcomm uses a different definition of "soft" to Jeremy's. Whether or not you agree, that's presumably a position they think they can defend under UK law and regulatory practice.
2. If you dig down far enough into their website, there's a white paper that clearly admits they don't know how it works. Hence, presumably, the pseudo-scientific arm-wavery.

Now, neither of those points lets me forgive the company for spamming this group with pseudo-science. But I'm perfectly willing to believe that it does do a similar job as phosphate dosing (but somehow using metal discs instead dosing with phosphate).

 

In other words, Liz says it seems to precipitate out the calcium in a way that doesn't stick, just like my Combimate does. And that's cool.

[PeterW]

Just for those who do use Combimate units, the U.K. Importer of the siliphos balls sells direct on eBay ... 

[Jeremy Harris]

It's not actually my definition, soft water is defined as water that has a low concentration of ions, in particular calcium and magnesium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_water and water softening is defined as a process that removes calcium and magnesium cations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softening

 

By their own admission, the water that comes out of this unit has the same amount of calcium and magnesium as the water that went in, therefore it has not been softened by any definition in common usage.  Invention definitions in order to (deceptively, in my view) market a product seems just wrong, to me.  Companies like Combimate can be open, honest and transparent, as are pretty much all the dozens of companies making ion exchange water softeners.

 

[DavidS]

On 22/02/2019 at 13:35, richi said:

 

Another satisfied Combinmate user here. Indeed, I think I started this thread years ago ?

 

Hi all, I am new to the forum and I am just a potential customer with NO technical knowledge! I followed this thread because I wanted to purchase a Halcyan water conditioner  but now  I am more interested to purchase a Combimate. We somehow don't have a waste in our house so a water softener is not an option.

I called Combimate this morning and I got the following answers to my questions:

- will I still find some limescale on my shower screen: yes

- same on my kettle: yes

- what about the little "film" on top of the water when I have a tea: yes

- so your system will a beneficial effect  mainly for the plumbing of my house: yes

I was a bit disappointed and I wanted to check with you guys if you can confirm the above or if you have experimented actually more advantages (no limescale on shower screen, skin itching less than before...).
One thing for sure, the lady was not at all a sales person :-))

@Lizzie: still super happy with your Halcyan?

 

Thank you all

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

When you say you " somehow don't have a waste in our house so a water softener is not an option", how do your wash basins, sink, washing machine etc drain their waste water?  There are some pretty good compact softeners around that can usually be pretty easily plumbed into most houses, and will do all that you want (no limescale at all, no marks on shower screens, no build up in kettles or pipes).

 

Phosphate dosing devices, like the Combimate, don't remove the calcium, but they do stop it sticking to surfaces pretty well, so it doesn't form hard scale.  They also provide the same sort of benefit as a softener in terms of a reduction in the amount of soap and detergent needed.

 

Sadly there are an awful lot of snake oil devices around, that claim to use some magical technique to change the chemistry of the water, but they all sail pretty close to the wind with their advertising material, and none can be proven to do as they say.  There's plenty of discussion earlier in this thread about some of the impossible claims that have been made.

[Mr Punter]

I have a Combimate and it seems OK but not scale free.  We are in a moderate hard water area.  They are fairly cheap and quite easy to fit.  I think they help prevent Coronavirus and bubonic plague too, which is helpful.

[DavidS]

Thanks Jeremy. Our boiler and water tank are in the loft and there  is no waste close to this area. Harvey came to install their water softener and also East Midlands water and both  couldn't. 
We are in a very hard water area (South London) so hopefully a Combimate will help. 
Any other good system out there? I am asking since Mr Punter is saying that is Combimate is only "ok" in a moderate hard water area, so not sure it will be good enough for my house?

[tommyt]

11 minutes ago, DavidS said:

Thanks Jeremy. Our boiler and water tank are in the loft and there  is no waste close to this area. Harvey came to install their water softener and also East Midlands water and both  couldn't. 
We are in a very hard water area (South London) so hopefully a Combimate will help. 
Any other good system out there? I am asking since Mr Punter is saying that is Combimate is only "ok" in a moderate hard water area, so not sure it will be good enough for my house?

You can always install a water softener. Never did a site visit where I couldn’t find a way to get one in. (FWIW softener waste discharges at mains pressure so can be run a fair distance, even vertically to a waste pipe elsewhere and we often built insulated cabinets to install them on an outside wall) But sometimes it isn’t a straight forward job and the price or the disruption needed to fit one was too much for the customers to swallow. People always seemed to make the decision to install one after their house or brand new Kitchen was finished.  

[DavidS]

57 minutes ago, tommyt said:

You can always install a water softener. Never did a site visit where I couldn’t find a way to get one in. (FWIW softener waste discharges at mains pressure so can be run a fair distance, even vertically to a waste pipe elsewhere and we often built insulated cabinets to install them on an outside wall) But sometimes it isn’t a straight forward job and the price or the disruption needed to fit one was too much for the customers to swallow. People always seemed to make the decision to install one after their house or brand new Kitchen was finished.  

It would have been too complicated. The only way they found was to run a pipe against the wall of the bedroom loft until the ensuite bathroom sink but as you said, it wads too much disruption. I also had 2 independent plumbers who came to my house to have a look as we were very upset not to be able to have a softener. I am not a technical person and I don't really remember everything in details just that we had a soakaway pipe for the boiler or something like that. Anyway, please believe me when I say it is not an option to install a water softener. 

 

[Snags]

On 22/04/2020 at 17:03, Jeremy Harris said:

Welcome.

 

When you say you " somehow don't have a waste in our house so a water softener is not an option", how do your wash basins, sink, washing machine etc drain their waste water?  There are some pretty good compact softeners around that can usually be pretty easily plumbed into most houses, and will do all that you want (no limescale at all, no marks on shower screens, no build up in kettles or pipes).

 

Phosphate dosing devices, like the Combimate, don't remove the calcium, but they do stop it sticking to surfaces pretty well, so it doesn't form hard scale.  They also provide the same sort of benefit as a softener in terms of a reduction in the amount of soap and detergent needed.

 

Sadly there are an awful lot of snake oil devices around, that claim to use some magical technique to change the chemistry of the water, but they all sail pretty close to the wind with their advertising material, and none can be proven to do as they say.  There's plenty of discussion earlier in this thread about some of the impossible claims that have been made.

There is a Heat and Energy workshop at the national build centre in Swindon. Halcyon are one of the listed suppliers who will be there. 
 

Would be great to see if they’ll do some controlled experiments to show how their magic works ☺️ I’m happy to host you Jeremy if you fancy it! 

 

I discovered this thread yesterday after looking into different solutions for a new build I’m looking to purchase. I’ve currently got the kinetico Kube water softener, in my current property, it’s a cracking unit and the water quality is excellent.  
 

I’ve really enjoyed the science behind the process’ being explained here and I wish more folks knew what they were purchasing before giving up nearly £700 for an unknown. 
 

keep up the good work.