Cost comparisons - Aluminimum Clad Windows

[DavidG]

Hello all,

 

New here, so be gentle! 🙂

 

I'm trying to set up for an EnerPHit project on our house here and am really struggling with the windows. Having found this site through searching for this type of issue I found a fantastic chart by @Visti to compare the prices vs Uw values for a multitude of suppliers. It's really interesting to see, however as it's now nearly 5 years old I wondered if anyone has created an updated version at all?

 

After many months of wrestling I have a quote for some Rationel windows and it's alarming to say the least and I can't think that it's simply gone up by that much in 4-5 years.

I have had a scout through more recent posts, but could find anything.  

[Ralph]

Can't help you with the spreadsheet but in 2020 Rationel Auraplus triple were about £380 per m2 for me. I have seen some articles about prices having gone up 30% since then and more.

[Moonshine]

My sixteen Rationel Auraplus triple ordered at the start of 2022 were £630 / m2 installed.

[Thorfun]

the problem with using someone else's prices is that it seems that companies quote differently for different people. if you read enough window costing threads on here you'll see this pattern. for some Rationel will be cheap but for other expensive. others will find Internorm are stupidly expensive but others' quotes are more reasonable.

 

I think the best thing to do is to get quotes from various suppliers and then choose the best price/performance/style point for you. we did just that and it soon became apparent which would could dismiss and which were moved to our shortlist. also, visit the suppliers at shows to see the quality of the windows. some we just discounted out of hand as we didn't think the quality was all that but others we thought we'd happily pay a premium for that sort of quality and also pay more for great customer service (can't really put a price on that!)

 

in the end we went with Norrsken who were brilliant. good quality windows/sliders and a reasonable price and excellent customer service. they also fit them so we had one company do it all.

 

I'm not surprised Alu-clad windows have gone up in price though when you think of how much timber has increased in price recently.

[jayc89]

I've seen a massive fluctuation in quotes for the exact same windows. Some 50% higher than others. It's crazy. 

[craig]

You may find this useful? 

 

[Conor]

We've internorm 310s throughout the house and are very, very happy with them. We got 3 quotes, they came out in the middle. (£22k, 34k, and £40k). 

 

Definitely get quotes for your build as companies price in different ways, and some can't do certain dimensions or styles others can. E.g. internorm were the only ones that could do 2400mm tall patio doors and a 2200mm tilt and turn window.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Conor

[DavidG]

Thank you for the responses folks, much appreciated and very enlightening.

 

I have had a quote back for Rationel (no mention of 3G) for two windows at just shy of £5500 (incl VAT).....these are to fit into sash windows openings, which are roughly 1.5m2 each, so I'm apparently looking at around £1835/m2..........so a little higher than I was anticipating.

 

I appreciate the economies of scale involved here, but to put this into perspective I had also requested a three part bay window (just under 4m2) and another three sashes, so the total area was around 11m2. I have since been told by the supplier that they cannot offer the Rationel window system for the bay (????) so the quote to do the other windows in this system becomes somewhat useless.

 

Beyond this, as it is part of an EnerPHit rebuild of our house I have specifically stated that I simply want them just weather sealed (no internal works for them at all) as I will be internally insulating the solid brick walls myself.

 

To me it seemed like we could have had an amazing price as they have none of the finesse work that is usually needed. 

Not quite sure where to head next, but certainly time to do some more shopping around - can I approach another Rationel supplier or would I just be directed back to the same local agent?

We have any Internorm agent not too far away, so they feel like the next logical step.

[renovator123]

Do any of you have installation quotes given separately, especially for smaller windows or part-glazed doors? Those locally only want to sell UPVC (we want alu clad or hardwood/ Accoya), and withdrewoir U values.

 

We are having a nightmare trying to find fitter for retrofit for Green Building Store, or anyone to fit - looks like all existing Passive Houses in the area were new build or full refurbs done by a single builder which isn't possible for us. We did find an Internorm fitter but Internorm's reputation is poor and £5,000 per door (on website) when you need 3 doors is ridiculously beyond budget. Any ideas on window costs?

 

What are we looking for in a fitter, who would likely be doing their first fitting involving thermal bridging prevention/ insulation?

 

* Joiner, or carpenter? 

 

* Crane or lift, or is scaffold manageable? (No large upstairs windows, will need partial road closure though it should be ok).

 

* What is needed for insulation measures? Doesn't seem like much info is given on green building society website.

 

It's a rural area so anyone fitting nationwide or English/Scottish borders would be appreciated.

 

At this point, we are over a year into trying to get windows while patching up the increasingly rotted 1980s ones with sealant, plywood, etc, and hoping they don't fall out. Nearest experienced builder and fitter has 12-15 month timescale, which takes us past our expected heat pump install.

 

As with OP, prices are significantly higher than previous threads here. Internorm and Green Building Store supply only £12,000 - £15,000 including VAT for 3 doors (2 part glazed), 7 windows of 11 sq m. No fitting estimate at all.

 

Things tried so far

- Green Building Store currently short of fitters and suggested someone we already knew about with long wait list

- Internorm don't do supply and fit for renovations, second nearest distributor quoted for supply only with 100% down before delivery which is too risky

- Asked a local carpentry / window making firm to quote but they couldn't give accurate U values and ignored our specs and just went with their regular (poor) offering.

- Composite firms also not an option for doors since we are below minimum height (low ceilings so unavoidable), they don't have the U values although we did look at Tinidoor who cut down composites but no fitters in this area

 

[Redbeard]

Hi,

 

What area are you in?

 

My GBS 5 windows and a door cost £734/m2 supply only this year. Compares with £635/m2 installed in 2014.

[craig]

If your still looking for an installer send me a message, happy to put you in touch with our guys.

[DavidG]

On 02/12/2022 at 21:27, Redbeard said:

Hi,

 

What area are you in?

 

My GBS 5 windows and a door cost £734/m2 supply only this year. Compares with £635/m2 installed in 2014.

Not sure if that's aimed at me or @renovator123? 
If it was a question for me then Gloucestershire.

Good to see the GBS comparisons, I'm speaking with them at the moment.

[DavidG]

 

On 02/12/2022 at 21:17, renovator123 said:

Do any of you have installation quotes given separately, especially for smaller windows or part-glazed doors? Those locally only want to sell UPVC (we want alu clad or hardwood/ Accoya), and withdrewoir U values.

 

We are having a nightmare trying to find fitter for retrofit for Green Building Store, or anyone to fit - looks like all existing Passive Houses in the area were new build or full refurbs done by a single builder which isn't possible for us. We did find an Internorm fitter but Internorm's reputation is poor and £5,000 per door (on website) when you need 3 doors is ridiculously beyond budget. Any ideas on window costs?

 

What are we looking for in a fitter, who would likely be doing their first fitting involving thermal bridging prevention/ insulation?

 

* Joiner, or carpenter? 

 

* Crane or lift, or is scaffold manageable? (No large upstairs windows, will need partial road closure though it should be ok).

 

* What is needed for insulation measures? Doesn't seem like much info is given on green building society website.

 

It's a rural area so anyone fitting nationwide or English/Scottish borders would be appreciated.

 

At this point, we are over a year into trying to get windows while patching up the increasingly rotted 1980s ones with sealant, plywood, etc, and hoping they don't fall out. Nearest experienced builder and fitter has 12-15 month timescale, which takes us past our expected heat pump install.

 

As with OP, prices are significantly higher than previous threads here. Internorm and Green Building Store supply only £12,000 - £15,000 including VAT for 3 doors (2 part glazed), 7 windows of 11 sq m. No fitting estimate at all.

 

Things tried so far

- Green Building Store currently short of fitters and suggested someone we already knew about with long wait list

- Internorm don't do supply and fit for renovations, second nearest distributor quoted for supply only with 100% down before delivery which is too risky

- Asked a local carpentry / window making firm to quote but they couldn't give accurate U values and ignored our specs and just went with their regular (poor) offering.

- Composite firms also not an option for doors since we are below minimum height (low ceilings so unavoidable), they don't have the U values although we did look at Tinidoor who cut down composites but no fitters in this area

 

 

No separate figures for the installation, but as I said all we need is for them to be sealed externally. I actually don't want them to do anything internally as I'm insulating after they have been installed, so I thought it would be an easy project for them.  

 

It's baffling that none of the 'big boys' seem to have got it right yet given the number of comments on various pages here and elsewhere. If one of them got it sorted we would likely all flock towards them! 

Edited December 3, 2022 by DavidG

[Redbeard]

Sorry @DavidG, the query re location was for @renovator123. Glad the cost comparisons were useful.

[saveasteading]

On 02/12/2022 at 21:17, renovator123 said:

Joiner, or carpenter

Scotland or England? The terms vary according to location, and beware using the wrong term.

[tuftythesquirrel]

Just chipping with my own experience.

 

We have 60 m2 of window area. 7 doors and 21 windows. We were getting quotes in mid to end of 2020,  for tripled glazed, Alu-Clad windows from the usual suspects, Internorm, Velvac, Rational and Idealcombi to name a few. I prepared a window schedule with dimensions, so they all had the same specification. They all priced at a similar point, e.g. £35-40K.

 

Then the fun began. My neighbour who had Internorm fitted, showed me his quote, from the same person at the company, going to our (same) post code. He was given 43% discount on the list price, we got 18%. A difference of around £10k.  We spoke to Idealcombi to update our quote and they said they could give us an additional discount of 35%. A difference of £13K. We then spoke to some of the other companies and told them the situation. They then replied “oh, we can match that”. We went with Idealcombi since they were the first to offer the discount without being asked. They have also been very good with a warranty claim.

 

Ultimately we paid around £430 per square metre – not fitted.

 

It was also incredibly convoluted. We skipped the £800+Vat  measurement fee and did it ourselves. We would ask (using the schedule) please make W1, 100mm wider and W5, 200mm taller. They actually, made W1, 200mm wider and W5, 100mm taller and so on. We had 17 quotes before they got it spot on. I’m from an engineering background, so specifying everything and checking that the supplier conforms is second nature. It’s laborious but don’t leave anything to chance.

 

We also installed them ourselves. Me, with no building experience and a bricklayer/stonemason who was with us for the build. We made our own mounting brackets out of 5mm galvanised bar, because the manufacturers 3mm brackets looked a bit frail. We know a Velvac installer and we were looking at our kitchen windows, he said to me “we would put four brackets on those, two either side, how many did you use?”. “Ten” I replied. I think they will be strong enough!

 

So in my humble opinion, the whole thing is a bit of game. All the quotes we had (every one) had a margin of at least 35-40% that could be sacrificed if necessary, to get the order, on which they were presumably making an acceptable margin.

 

At least use a per square metre baseline price, so you can evaluate the true cost. There’s such a massive variation. I’ve seen doors at the NSBRC centre in Swindon that were £5k+VAT. Ours were around £900 and passive house rated.

 

Good luck.

[craig]

23 hours ago, tuftythesquirrel said:

So in my humble opinion, the whole thing is a bit of game. All the quotes we had (every one) had a margin of at least 35-40% that could be sacrificed if necessary, to get the order, on which they were presumably making an acceptable margin.

 

Of course, it is but they're also taken the piss. They wouldn't offer the discount unless challenged or requested and then offering an extra 30/35% just means in my humble opinion that their tactics are back to the old ways of white gold and their initial markup is sky high. It gives us all a bad name tbh, those who are trying to be upfront and honest with a fair but honest markup are the ones suffering the most.

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, craig said:

wouldn't offer the discount unless challenged

Yes this is not fair, and you have to doubt the principles throughout the business.

I would always prefer the supplier who gives a fair price straight off.

 

Let me give you an extreme example. A very big order of fibreglass quilt(2,000m2)

SIG:   let me look on the screen, yes we can give you a price of £x/m2......long, long pause, and 30% discount.

Me: I was looking for much more than that

SIG: what other prices do you have, as we will match it.

Me: I am not telling you that, and will only go back to the best supplier, so what is your best price?

SIG: Ahhh, it isn't really how we work but I can offer 60%

Me: look at your records and see that you sold to us at 70% 3 months ago.

SIG: ahhh but that was in Oxfordshire , we don't give that discount in Kent.

Me: but it is a lorry load straight from the factory and you don't handle it.

SIG: no it is just policy.

 

so I got a better price eventually but bought it at similar elsewhere, where the quote was not a try-on.

 

 

[DavidG]

On 07/12/2022 at 13:29, tuftythesquirrel said:

Just chipping with my own experience.

 

We have 60 m2 of window area. 7 doors and 21 windows. We were getting quotes in mid to end of 2020,  for tripled glazed, Alu-Clad windows from the usual suspects, Internorm, Velvac, Rational and Idealcombi to name a few. I prepared a window schedule with dimensions, so they all had the same specification. They all priced at a similar point, e.g. £35-40K.

 

Then the fun began. My neighbour who had Internorm fitted, showed me his quote, from the same person at the company, going to our (same) post code. He was given 43% discount on the list price, we got 18%. A difference of around £10k.  We spoke to Idealcombi to update our quote and they said they could give us an additional discount of 35%. A difference of £13K. We then spoke to some of the other companies and told them the situation. They then replied “oh, we can match that”. We went with Idealcombi since they were the first to offer the discount without being asked. They have also been very good with a warranty claim.

 

Ultimately we paid around £430 per square metre – not fitted.

 

It was also incredibly convoluted. We skipped the £800+Vat  measurement fee and did it ourselves. We would ask (using the schedule) please make W1, 100mm wider and W5, 200mm taller. They actually, made W1, 200mm wider and W5, 100mm taller and so on. We had 17 quotes before they got it spot on. I’m from an engineering background, so specifying everything and checking that the supplier conforms is second nature. It’s laborious but don’t leave anything to chance.

 

We also installed them ourselves. Me, with no building experience and a bricklayer/stonemason who was with us for the build. We made our own mounting brackets out of 5mm galvanised bar, because the manufacturers 3mm brackets looked a bit frail. We know a Velvac installer and we were looking at our kitchen windows, he said to me “we would put four brackets on those, two either side, how many did you use?”. “Ten” I replied. I think they will be strong enough!

 

So in my humble opinion, the whole thing is a bit of game. All the quotes we had (every one) had a margin of at least 35-40% that could be sacrificed if necessary, to get the order, on which they were presumably making an acceptable margin.

 

At least use a per square metre baseline price, so you can evaluate the true cost. There’s such a massive variation. I’ve seen doors at the NSBRC centre in Swindon that were £5k+VAT. Ours were around £900 and passive house rated.

 

Good luck.

Thank you for this @tuftythesquirrel, not overly encouraging, but sadly not too surprising either.

I'm usually the other side as I do Architectural Design myself, so I have been the one battling the errors. This time it's for me and it all feels rather different somehow!

 

Still no movement with Internorm whom I have asked to quote, so I'll give them another nudge.

 

Feels ironic that if these companies sent out one really good quote on day one then their wasted time would be taken right down at their end and there wouldn't be people like us having to get 10 quotes from 10 companies just to make sure that we're not ripped off!

[DavidG]

On 08/12/2022 at 12:45, craig said:

 

Of course, it is but they're also taken the piss. They wouldn't offer the discount unless challenged or requested and then offering an extra 30/35% just means in my humble opinion that their tactics are back to the old ways of white gold and their initial markup is sky high. It gives us all a bad name tbh, those who are trying to be upfront and honest with a fair but honest markup are the ones suffering the most.

What window manufacturers do you work with out of interest @craig?

[DavidG]

On 10/12/2022 at 13:55, saveasteading said:

Yes this is not fair, and you have to doubt the principles throughout the business.

I would always prefer the supplier who gives a fair price straight off.

 

Let me give you an extreme example. A very big order of fibreglass quilt(2,000m2)

SIG:   let me look on the screen, yes we can give you a price of £x/m2......long, long pause, and 30% discount.

Me: I was looking for much more than that

SIG: what other prices do you have, as we will match it.

Me: I am not telling you that, and will only go back to the best supplier, so what is your best price?

SIG: Ahhh, it isn't really how we work but I can offer 60%

Me: look at your records and see that you sold to us at 70% 3 months ago.

SIG: ahhh but that was in Oxfordshire , we don't give that discount in Kent.

Me: but it is a lorry load straight from the factory and you don't handle it.

SIG: no it is just policy.

 

so I got a better price eventually but bought it at similar elsewhere, where the quote was not a try-on.

 

 

Baffling! All rather surreal when you have more information than they might know too!

[craig]

14 minutes ago, DavidG said:

What window manufacturers do you work with out of interest @craig?

 

Hi David, 

 

Dropped you a quick message but here is my introduction which will help answer that question.

 

[Post and beam]

A recent conversation with Rationel for my potential build had the person i was talking to say 'about £700/square metre for double glazed'.  This was for their ALU clad windows. I had been asking about what premium for triple glazed and was told plus 15%, ish.

When working out your square metres is it glazing only or the full window opening? I think its time to get a little more specific with them and also ask whether its fitted or supply only of course.

Thanks

keith

[saveasteading]

They are measured as the whole window area including frame, and that should certainly be for a fitted price.

[Post and beam]

Thank you so much and cool. I have approx' 32.4 square metres of Rationel aura plus double glazing to compare and get the best price for then.

 

Do any of you wise folk know if the Aura plus and forma plus are the same price. It appears to just be a style thing so i believe they should be.

 

I did pick up a hint when i spoke to the Rationel guy on the phone that they were thinking of moving towards just offering triple glazed