Services trench and BT line

[Maria]

Has anyone had any experience damaging a BT cable whilst doing excavation works? Or getting BT openreach to temporarily disconnect the cable to allow excavations?

 

I have to bring the services though a shared drive with limited space. There are neighbors' outbuildings on both side of the drive, so I don't want to come too close to them. The middle of the drive has already gas, water, electrics and BT.

 

I did get BT people come for a survey on site to see if they could disconnect the line temporarily, so we can roll up the cable and have a clear space for the trench. They were not conclusive whether it was possible. They didn't know if the cable was ducted or buried. 

 

The contractor said they'll just dig around existing utilities avoiding coming too close to the outbuildings, but if the cable gets damaged during works, what are the likely consequences (what sort of damage charges am I likely to face)? The line is copper.

 

I attach the PDF with utility map

 

Many thanks

Utility Detection Survey.pdf

[Conor]

Let the contractor do his thing. I've supervised works laying pipes in ground that was made up of more utilities than earth.

[JohnMo]

Don't get involved let the contractor do it.  If he hits anything it's on his shoulders not yours.  Mine hit a main 10" water line , the cost to repair was down to him and his insurance.

 

If you start saying do this, do that, you are in charge - it then your fault and your shoulders, your money.

[Maria]

I wasn't going to interfere until the neighbours started asking for plans and drawings of the works as it comes under party wall agreement.  I have posted about it earlier this year.

 

I did have to stall all the works then and get the surveys etc done . But I am really back to square one - the contractor says - they'll pick the best route, and the neighbours say they need to know exactly how far and how deep from their properties we are going to dig.

 

That's why if we managed to get BT line out the way, it would give us a clear path fairly in the middle of the lane.  

 

And if something gets damaged, I figure the BT cable is the least of all evils.

[ToughButterCup]

54 minutes ago, Maria said:

I wasn't going to interfere until the neighbours started asking for plans and drawings of the works as it comes under party wall agreement. ...

 

You've got evidence of plans and drawings  (above) and made appropriate consultations. Nobody - but nobody is going to say to you - OK thats fine you go ahead - without all sorts of pointless office-based shenanigans, because they'll just require a survey based on - you guessed it - digging out.

 

Check your builder's Insurance . If thats OK,   - JustBloodyDoIt .

Consider being onsite yourself or (with appropriate permission) videoing it

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, Maria said:

That's why if we managed to get BT line out the way, it would give us a clear path fairly in the middle of the lane.  

 

And if something gets damaged, I figure the BT cable is the least of all evils.

The chance of those services being where they are on the plan is near nil. 
 

The contractor needs to take on the full HSE requirements for the installation - they should as a matter of course CAT scan the whole lane and then tag and mark the services where they lie. They then can decide where to dig but it’s their liability and their safety.
 

I’ve never had a contractor take any underground survey on face value !! 

[kommando]

15 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The chance of those services being where they are on the plan is near nil. 

That's been my experience, the existing plans are mince and cannot be trusted. I also have never cut anything I have found by a combination of a bucket with dull edge and no teeth, a good spotter stood by the side of the hole and using a spade and not the digger when an evidence of a service makes itself known to check what it really is. 

 

Give the neighbour the current plans, have you contractor confirm his best digger operator plus an extra set of eyes will do the job and plan in advance how to get the services reinstated as fast as possible. So when digging near a water main I had a full 1000l IBC with a pump ready to feed the house, knew where all the stop cocks were and had all the keys to operate then to hand.

[saveasteading]

Yes damaged lots. They are seldom where shown. The good news is that it isn't fibre.

All I have learnt is that the drawings are seldom accurate, the work is likely to not  be to standard spec, but is likely to have followed the easiest route.

Therefore it may be near the surface, not protected, and not marked by tape etc.

They absolutely will charge for damage.

[kommando]

The local farmer cut my BT copper line when clearing drainage ditches, the line is 4 to 6 inches deep, so well above BT minimum depth, a bottle of whisky to the BT repair guy and it was reported as a line fault with nothing to pay.

[Temp]

6 hours ago, Maria said:

I did have to stall all the works then and get the surveys etc done . But I am really back to square one - the contractor says - they'll pick the best route, and the neighbours say they need to know exactly how far and how deep from their properties we are going to dig.

 

Discuss with the contractor how near to their buildings they feel is safe. Eg agree a limit as to how close they can dig.

 

Then tell the neighbours you plan to dig down the middle but that may change to avoid damaging services. Tell them you ave agreed with the contractors they won't dig closer than x meters. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

15 hours ago, Maria said:

Has anyone had any experience damaging a BT cable whilst doing excavation works? Or getting BT openreach to temporarily disconnect the cable to allow excavations?

 

What sort of cable? How many houses does it serve? 

 

If its a big fat cable serving many houses best not get involved. Leave everything to the contractor and their insurance.

 

If its just a cable to your house it wouldn't be £thousands to repair. There might also be options to put another BT cable in the trench if it gets damaged. Depends where it goes. If it goes to a BT pole near the end of the road you are digging up you could run a new cable to the bottom of the pole and pay BT to connect it up. Leave enough wire coiled up to reach the top with several meters spare. You might also consider putting a duct in the road with your new BT cables and a draw rope to make installing fibre easier. The main thing would be to fix it before you back fill the trench as digging it up again would be the main cost.

 

For info..

Underground phone cable is around £1 a meter.

Duct about  £1.50 to £3 a meter.

 

So a whole new duct and cable over a 100m run might be £500 plus a £ few hundred to get BT to connect up each end.

 

A simple repair to a broken cable would be cheaper. 

 

[Carrerahill]

7 hours ago, Maria said:

I wasn't going to interfere until the neighbours started asking for plans and drawings of the works as it comes under party wall agreement.  I have posted about it earlier this year.

 

I did have to stall all the works then and get the surveys etc done . But I am really back to square one - the contractor says - they'll pick the best route, and the neighbours say they need to know exactly how far and how deep from their properties we are going to dig.

 

That's why if we managed to get BT line out the way, it would give us a clear path fairly in the middle of the lane.  

 

And if something gets damaged, I figure the BT cable is the least of all evils.

Just get your contractor to get on with it. 

 

Your neighbours sound like they are getting too involved... retired? 

 

Just make sure the reinstatement works are second to none and no one will moan, oh and you don't hit the gas main.

 

But stay out of it. 

 

By the way, if there was a gas leak, the utility would be out and dig it up without plans or anything, they just fix it and reinstate, don't give your neighbours a say unless they are making some very reasonable requests or your going to screw up a nice path or something. 

 

If you hit a phone cable, assuming copper, a handful of silicone filled 3M crimp joints and a waterproof enclosure and its fixed. 

 

I once cut a BT line during a build, crimped in a temp line for the build and then rerouted it through the new build and re-terminated it. No one ever knew and no one ever would now. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Maria]

22 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

You've got evidence of plans and drawings  (above) and made appropriate consultations. Nobody - but nobody is going to say to you - OK thats fine you go ahead - without all sorts of pointless office-based shenanigans, because they'll just require a survey based on - you guessed it - digging out.

 

Check your builder's Insurance . If thats OK,   - JustBloodyDoIt .

Consider being onsite yourself or (with appropriate permission) videoing it

I would,  but they can stop the works if I don't get an OK from them.  And knowing them, they will 

[Maria]

20 hours ago, PeterW said:

The chance of those services being where they are on the plan is near nil. 
 

The contractor needs to take on the full HSE requirements for the installation - they should as a matter of course CAT scan the whole lane and then tag and mark the services where they lie. They then can decide where to dig but it’s their liability and their safety.
 

I’ve never had a contractor take any underground survey on face value !! 

I have scanned the lane.  That's the survey results in the attached PDF.  

[Maria]

19 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Yes damaged lots. They are seldom where shown. The good news is that it isn't fibre.

All I have learnt is that the drawings are seldom accurate, the work is likely to not  be to standard spec, but is likely to have followed the easiest route.

Therefore it may be near the surface, not protected, and not marked by tape etc.

They absolutely will charge for damage.

What sort of money for the damages? It's a private lane with cable servicing 2 properties (mine and neighbours who currently don't live there). So not a huge issue for anyone really. 

 

I just found experience dealing with them incredibly frustrating.  It took 2 months and £390 for them to come on site,  and after all that I am none the wiser

[Maria]

19 hours ago, kommando said:

The local farmer cut my BT copper line when clearing drainage ditches, the line is 4 to 6 inches deep, so well above BT minimum depth, a bottle of whisky to the BT repair guy and it was reported as a line fault with nothing to pay.

😅😅  

[Maria]

16 hours ago, Temp said:

 

What sort of cable? How many houses does it serve? 

 

If its a big fat cable serving many houses best not get involved. Leave everything to the contractor and their insurance.

 

If its just a cable to your house it wouldn't be £thousands to repair. There might also be options to put another BT cable in the trench if it gets damaged. Depends where it goes. If it goes to a BT pole near the end of the road you are digging up you could run a new cable to the bottom of the pole and pay BT to connect it up. Leave enough wire coiled up to reach the top with several meters spare. You might also consider putting a duct in the road with your new BT cables and a draw rope to make installing fibre easier. The main thing would be to fix it before you back fill the trench as digging it up again would be the main cost.

 

For info..

Underground phone cable is around £1 a meter.

Duct about  £1.50 to £3 a meter.

 

So a whole new duct and cable over a 100m run might be £500 plus a £ few hundred to get BT to connect up each end.

 

A simple repair to a broken cable would be cheaper. 

 

Copper cable serving 2 properties- mine and neighbour who doesn't live there.

 

I don't think it how's to a pole anywhere near. I think it might be branched off a bigger cable in the main road (if that's what they do).

[Maria]

16 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Just get your contractor to get on with it. 

 

Your neighbours sound like they are getting too involved... retired? 

 

Just make sure the reinstatement works are second to none and no one will moan, oh and you don't hit the gas main.

 

But stay out of it. 

 

By the way, if there was a gas leak, the utility would be out and dig it up without plans or anything, they just fix it and reinstate, don't give your neighbours a say unless they are making some very reasonable requests or your going to screw up a nice path or something. 

 

If you hit a phone cable, assuming copper, a handful of silicone filled 3M crimp joints and a waterproof enclosure and its fixed. 

 

I once cut a BT line during a build, crimped in a temp line for the build and then rerouted it through the new build and re-terminated it. No one ever knew and no one ever would now. 

Retired surveyor 😁

 

If I could get away with it, I would.  Unfortunately they will stop the works. 

 

They are concerned that I might be coming too close to their garage/studio foundations,  which is a 2 storey building on the edge of the lane.

[kommando]

So assuming the retired surveyor is not the neighbour who does not live there and the BT line is furthest away from the retired surveyors buildings then go for the BT line route. Its marked as 300mm deep so easy to find as it will be even shallower and just reveal it and lay to one side and then finish the trench to the depth you want. Lay in the new services, partly cover and then put the BT back in but to one side. 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Maria said:

They are concerned that I might be coming too close to their garage/studio foundations,  which is a 2 storey building on the edge of the lane.

What new services are you burying?

 

I doubt even water would go more than 750mm deep, so if a trench that deep bothers foundations of a 2 storey building, it is built on inadequate foundations.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Maria said:

I have scanned the lane.  That's the survey results in the attached PDF.  

Sorry but that is just the line diagram - you need to tag mark the services as found on the ground using the correct marker paint, and then dig. 
 

When you say “I have scanned the Lane” do you mean you personally, or hired a contractor .? As if it’s you personally then you issue this - you’re liable if they aren’t where you say they are !
 

I would be very cautious taking this approach unless you carry £2-5m PL insurance for underground survey work. 

[Maria]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Sorry but that is just the line diagram - you need to tag mark the services as found on the ground using the correct marker paint, and then dig. 
 

When you say “I have scanned the Lane” do you mean you personally, or hired a contractor .? As if it’s you personally then you issue this - you’re liable if they aren’t where you say they are !
 

I would be very cautious taking this approach unless you carry £2-5m PL insurance for underground survey work. 

That was a survey done by a specialist firm.  There are details on the PDF. They marked the ground as well.  

 

But the contractor will do the trial digs anyway. 

[Carrerahill]

3 hours ago, Maria said:

Unfortunately they will stop the works. 

Get the contractor in and set them to work, how are the neighbours going to stop it? I would just crack on and tell the contractor if they are given any grief just tell them to be friendly, discuss the concerns but keep going. If the access is shared and you have a right to dig through it, then go for it.

 

Out of a matter of interest what would they do is a utility came and dug it up to service their line/cable? They cannot really stop anyone. 

 

Is the surveyor due to go on holiday?

 

 

 

[Maria]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

What new services are you burying?

 

I doubt even water would go more than 750mm deep, so if a trench that deep bothers foundations of a 2 storey building, it is built on inadequate foundations.

The usual  - water, gas, electrics and BT.

 

I know about the neighbours foundations, and I suspect they are deeper, than 800mm that we plan to excavate. But I can't verify for certain, and he gave me a copy of the planning application where it seems that the foundations are 600mm deep. (I measured the drawings and they appeared to be to scale)

 

But there was a lot of negativity from the neighbours, so they will be difficult if they can.

[Maria]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

Get the contractor in and set them to work, how are the neighbours going to stop it? I would just crack on and tell the contractor if they are given any grief just tell them to be friendly, discuss the concerns but keep going. If the access is shared and you have a right to dig through it, then go for it.

 

Out of a matter of interest what would they do is a utility came and dug it up to service their line/cable? They cannot really stop anyone. 

 

Is the surveyor due to go on holiday?

 

 

 

They could probably get the council on board. It's not going to be  one day job, so suppose they can manage to mess things up for me.

 

He also works in the Parish Council 😬