Take-aways from Installer Show '22

[HughF]

I visited Installer '22 at the NEC on Wednesday (told everyone who asked that I was a renewables retrofit specifier in the domestic sector, I'm not...)... My take-aways from the day:

 

1. Cool Energy had a demonstration trailer setup with their newer R32 based unit driving a very nicely made,  Italian sourced, fan coil unit in cooling mode. They have a nice product and they're very technical and open. Units will ship with the newer Carel pGDX display in the future (https://www.carel.com/pgdx) and this is a nice display/interface. My visit and chat has cemented them as my chosen supplier for my domestic renovation project.

 

2. Unitherm heating (Exeter) had a good display of heat pumps from various suppliers on their booth, but nothing plugged in and working. They were one of the few companies there with LG units to see.

 

3. Grant, who supply Chofu units (Japanese origin) had a nice booth, but the real take-away from them was their nicely produced brochures and handover guide which do a good job of explaining to the homeowner how setback and weather compensation work. Nice to see them trying to educate the user in how to get the best from their system.

 

4. Midsummer wholesale have launched heatpunk (heatpunk.co.uk) a web based tool for graphical heat loss calcs. It's similar to the freedom toolkit except it is web based and runs in the browser. You draw your house, specify the building contruction and it does heat loss and rad sizing in a graphical manner. Free to use (for now). I asked about importing DXF plans and that's something they are considering.

 

5. Sunamp are listening and are working on a making their PCM43 more reliable in long cycles (that's why it isn't available yet), and are also thinking that  PCM50 would be a good fit for heat pump applications.

 

6 (Leaving the best till last). Homely, by Evergreen energy - wow, this is a game changer. A modbus enabled, IoT based, smart thermostat and heat pump controller that takes control of a wide range of modbus controllable heat pumps and will optimise the flow temp and operating times depending on occupancy, weather, solar gain, predicted weather for the coming 24hrs, TOU tarrif data from the tarriff provider, storage battery %SOC, etc etc. It can automatically commision Midea and Samsung units over modbus and provides a full app for the end user to setup their schedules and temperatures. It has an indoor light/temp/humidity sensor that allows the unit to automatically setup the weather comp curves for a property, no installer callbacks, no fiddling by the user. I was very impressed with this and can see it being of real benefit to end users. They are going to enter a line of communication with Cool Energy to add support for their units.

 

All in all, very glad I visited. I'll go again next year for sure.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, HughF said:

I asked about importing DXF plans and that's something they are considering.

More like something they had not considered

[HughF]

45 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

More like something they had not considered

Fair point... Still, it's a nice web app.

[Bonner]

Very helpful sharing your take aways! I am seriously considering Cool Energy so will look out for the new display. Grant also on the list if I can find a reasonable cost MCS installer offering 7 year warranty.

[HughF]

26 minutes ago, Bonner said:

Very helpful sharing your take aways! I am seriously considering Cool Energy so will look out for the new display. Grant also on the list if I can find a reasonable cost MCS installer offering 7 year warranty.

I don’t have a bad word to say about Cool Energy. They were the only people there with a unit that was actually working, Chris is super technical and helpful and has a background in refrigeration control electronics and associated software, and their cabinets are stainless steel. And they’re very reasonably priced too.

[dpmiller]

^yep to all of that. This new display has been in the works for well over a year now, I've been waiting to hear more about it.  Have they got the energy stats running on it?

[HughF]

On 25/06/2022 at 09:04, dpmiller said:

^yep to all of that. This new display has been in the works for well over a year now, I've been waiting to hear more about it.  Have they got the energy stats running on it?

I think so, yes. Best drop an email to Chris to find out more...

[HughF]

The fan coil units are these, in case anyone is wondering:

 

https://aerfor.com/en/reverso

 

Very nice looking thing.

[joth]

34 minutes ago, HughF said:

The fan coil units are these, in case anyone is wondering:

 

https://aerfor.com/en/reverso

 

Very nice looking thing.

 

yeah if these had been available when we were building in 2020 I might have future proofed with the option to add these in rooms which would work out much easier than installing them in the loft and ducting cool air into the rooms (a task I hadn't appreciated the complexity of retrofitting, now I've started down that route, quite a messy job and eats a lot of loft space!)

 

[HughF]

Just now, joth said:

 

yeah if these had been available when we were building in 2020 I might have future proofed with the option to add these in rooms which would work out much easier than installing them in the loft and ducting cool air into the rooms (a task I hadn't appreciated the complexity of retrofitting, now I've started down that route, quite a messy job and eats a lot of loft space!)

 

I'm considering using one instead of a rad/towel rail in the bathroom... and possibly fitting one in each bedroom for cooling in the summer. My wife is of a certain age and she doesn't manage with the heat very well, my sis-in-law who lives with us isn't far behind either.

[joth]

Yeah I had a brief email chat with them about it a few months ago (checking how to get a condensate pump for it). It's still a tempting option to put in the office, even though I'm half way down a different path on the bedrooms.

I think the drawbacks for me are cost, the rather inelegant need for a condensate pump (that's my fault for not pre-planning for them), and the control system in it looks way over complex for what I need. I just want a variable speed fan I can automate control of from Loxone, no need for any of the built in display and remote control is comes with.

They do look a good alternative option though and probably work much better being housed fully in the room it's dedicated to.

[SuperJohnG]

On 24/06/2022 at 13:50, HughF said:

Cool Energy had a demonstration trailer setup with their newer R32 based unit driving a very nicely made,  Italian sourced, fan coil unit in cooling mode. They have a nice product and they're very technical and open. Units will ship with the newer Carel pGDX display in the future (https://www.carel.com/pgdx) and this is a nice display/interface. My visit and chat has cemented them as my chosen supplier for my domestic renovation project.

Thanks for this. Definitely who i am considering also 

[LaCurandera]

Is the Cool Energy mentioned here https://coolenergyshop.com/? 

 

[HughF]

10 minutes ago, LaCurandera said:

Is the Cool Energy mentioned here https://coolenergyshop.com/? 

 

Yep, that’s the one. 

[joth]

On 24/06/2022 at 13:50, HughF said:

6 (Leaving the best till last). Homely, by Evergreen energy - wow, this is a game changer. A modbus enabled, IoT based, smart thermostat and heat pump controller that takes control of a wide range of modbus controllable heat pumps and will optimise the flow temp and operating times depending on occupancy, weather, solar gain, predicted weather for the coming 24hrs, TOU tarrif data from the tarriff provider, storage battery %SOC, etc etc. It can automatically commision Midea and Samsung units over modbus and provides a full app for the end user to setup their schedules and temperatures. It has an indoor light/temp/humidity sensor that allows the unit to automatically setup the weather comp curves for a property, no installer callbacks, no fiddling by the user. I was very impressed with this and can see it being of real benefit to end users. They are going to enter a line of communication with Cool Energy to add support for their units.

 

 

This does sound very interesting and full of promise, although the reality of it today is somewhat short of this with only 2 (relatively minor) heat pump manufacturers supported. Also the lack of any API or expansion possibilities in Homely itself (but coming with its own mobile app) means you're just trading one manufacturer's walled garden for another. (in fact, by their own admission the ASHP may have a more open API than they themselves are offering).

In a complex home with heating, A/C, automated blinds and stack venting, and perhaps even MVHR bypass control, there's no point installing Homely to fully control the ASHP if it just ends up in fight with the other systems.  To succeed Homely needs to open up new integration possibilities, not close them off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HughF]

On 21/07/2022 at 12:19, joth said:

 

This does sound very interesting and full of promise, although the reality of it today is somewhat short of this with only 2 (relatively minor) heat pump manufacturers supported. Also the lack of any API or expansion possibilities in Homely itself (but coming with its own mobile app) means you're just trading one manufacturer's walled garden for another. (in fact, by their own admission the ASHP may have a more open API than they themselves are offering).

In a complex home with heating, A/C, automated blinds and stack venting, and perhaps even MVHR bypass control, there's no point installing Homely to fully control the ASHP if it just ends up in fight with the other systems.  To succeed Homely needs to open up new integration possibilities, not close them off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the target customer is the person who has an average house, and just wants a smart thermostat. And/or installers who don’t want to have to come back and tweak the weather comp curves, or try and get the customer to do it from an archaic controller. Because it is smart, it can learn the thermal response of the property and the emitters, therefore it can offer load comp on heatpumps that don’t have it in their native controller and then revert to weather comp automatically if the property is permanently occupied. It can also make a decision based on energy pricing at the time that heat is called for. 
 

yes it is another walled garden but having in essence an iot modbus interface to the heat generator, and controlling the flow temp from the smarts in the cloud, I can really see the opportunity for optimum control and cost savings.

 

I agree that more integrations would be good and from talking to their engineers on the stand, they were totally on board with adding more heat pumps to the list. Midea and Samsung are supported for now because Graham Hendra consults for them. They were happy to talk to cool energy about adding support their carel based units.

[Benguela]

Hi HughF,

 

You say:

 

5. Sunamp are listening and are working on a making their PCM43 more reliable in long cycles (that's why it isn't available yet), and are also thinking that  PCM50 would be a good fit for heat pump applications.

 

Can you tell us a bit more?

 

What I want is to run my GSHP at night using a cheap rate and then drawing that thermal energy down when I need it during the day. I think that's the direction Sunamp should be going... making products that pair with heat pumps and help customers shift their electricity usage to off peak.

[JohnMo]

Can't you do that with a normal cylinder, why do you need a sunamp? Just get a A rated cylinder for a 1/3 the cost.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Just get a A rated cylinder for a 1/3 the cost.

And leaks are very easy to fix.

[JohnMo]

And no electronics to fail, or generally no reliability issues.

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, Benguela said:

What I want is to run my GSHP at night using a cheap rate and then drawing that thermal energy down when I need it during the day. 

Use an insulated slab - 15 tonnes of concrete is an excellent way to load shift your heating requirements. The deltaT between the stored water / PCM and the air temp will be lower than with a conventional gas boiler so if you’re planning to try on doing this with radiators you may need a couple of Sunamp units as a minimum - consider that in your cost equations as it may take 8-10 years payback on the current energy prices.  
 

If this is a new build have you not considered increased insulation levels to reduce heat requirements ..?

[JohnMo]

We have only got 52 tonnes of floor slab to play with.  Stuffing heat into works well.  We put 30 degree flow temp in it for about 5 to 6 hours, that's enough to last 18 hours, until the next charge.

[Benguela]

8 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Can't you do that with a normal cylinder, why do you need a sunamp? Just get a A rated cylinder for a 1/3 the cost.

Primarily because it would be a very big cylinder, but I'm asking more in the spirit of 'it would be nice to have this one day' than 'must have this now'.

 

I have toyed with the idea of supersizing my buffer tank by ripping out my dinky 100 litre domestic buffer and installing a commercial buffer of 1,000 or 1,500 litres. I'd run the GSHP during off peak hours to warm up my buffer, then switch the GSHP off and 'draw down' the stored heat during the peak hours. But some challenges are:

 

- will my 12kw domestic GSHP be up to the job of heating that much water in a four hour off peak window

- how do I control the supersized buffer so that it circulates the stored hot water through my UFH independently from my GSHP... wouldn't that require bolting on a separate circulation pump and control system on top of my existing controls (which are working fine).

- I would probably have to have a blending arrangement because the temperature of my buffer would steadily drop as I draw down hot water into my heating system

 

This topic has come up in a few threads already... but does someone actually have an arrangement like this operational at the moment? And how is it working.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Benguela

[JohnMo]

Stuffing heat into the floor works well.  We put 30 degree flow temp in it for about 5 to 6 hours, that's enough to last 18 hours, until the next charge.  But it all depends on heat losses.

 

With the buffer your UFH pump mixer arrangement will draw from and return to a buffer, with no issues.

 

1500l heated from 30 to 50, would take circa 35kWh.

[markocosic]

1000 litre tanks are common in the continent and really not that big in footprint (<1m2)