Would appreciate some thoughts on plans please :)

[Kuro507]

Very early days, haven't found a plot or sold my house yet, but trying to get concept plan more fully defined and decide on building materials so I can get accurate costs together.

 

Fully appreciate that the plot will drive the design, but have to start somewhere and would need some figures to give for a mortgage when purchasing the land.

 

I'm still getting used to sketchup, so appologies for the crudeness of the drawings.

 

We would likely not use an architect, instead taking the time to design it ourselves. We do lots of entertaining, so the downstairs space is important to us.

the 2d drawing is slightly different to the 3d, I haven't updated the sketchup with the latest ideas I was playing with.

The plan would be for a house built to passive house recommendations, but not certified, primarily to ensure sensible running costs for the future.

Construction materials is still up for discussion, it will be primarily based on achieving the look we want, with good insulation at the best price possible.

 

Thanks in advance for any ideas and suggestions

 

 

[le-cerveau]

A few initial thoughts,

Bathroom door and stair opening, usually try and keep a good opening above the stairs so it doesn't feel like you will bang your head, does it work.

Storage, as there is no attic where will you keep all you junk, it is inevitable, so plan for some general storage and them some.

Services don't underestimate how mush space they require:

• MVHR (if going PassiveHaus standard you will have one with all the fittings)
• DHW storage and all the associated plumbing (make your Airing Cupboard a good size or there won't be space for any clothes)
• ASHP/Boiler location and how they feed everything else.

The current Airing cupboard is close to the en-suite but remote from all the other wet rooms!  Also how to feed it if the boiler is in the utility area.

What direction are the large glazing units, solar gain issues in summer, plan shading now.

Consider an entrance hall to insulate the main living area from the open door in winter.

You like I have large spans on the ground floor, this may be a deciding factor on your construction method, if you want to keep it that open, it will require Steel/RJS/pre-stressed concrete, no matter how you look at it there is currently a 10m span one way or another, that requires engineering.

[Barney12]

52 minutes ago, Kuro507 said:

I'm still getting used to sketchup, so appologies for the crudeness of the drawings.

 

Don't do yourself down! That's a better job than a lot or architects could muster!

[Ferdinand]

(Revised)

 

I think it is a good thing to start throwing ideas around, as long as you do not get *too* attached to specifics. At this early stage I suggest exposing yourself to as many ideas as you can, and try to focus on the generalities as well as the details. It is the broad knowledge and background you are missing my not using an architect - and you need to compensate by creating your own broader perspective.

 

That is important, because the joy of self-build is that you design something that works for you and suits the site, rather than taking a preconceived idea of your house and plonking it down wherever. That is in some ways no different from taking a developer's pre-conceived idea of what you house should be.

 

What are your key requirements? (ie your postcard-length summary of what you want from your house)

Do you know which area (approx) are you in, and what the vernacular style is for that area?

 

I recommend:

 

1 - Reading this design e-book written by one of our former architect members:

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=4333

 

2 - Visiting as many different interesting houses as you can on Open Days, via Estate Agents, for weekends away on AirBNB and so on, with a notebook and an eye on what you like. And I mean 20 or 30 not 2 or 3,

 

3 - Starting to look for details of the things that make houses work. Where is the light coming from at different times of day, as well as what sort of finishes has it got.

 

I find it helps to start from all three of "what is the site like", "what do we need" and "what will our house look like", and meet somewhere in the middle.

Ferdinand

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ferdinand

[jack]

Designing a house before you have the plot is somewhat putting the cart before the horse.  What if north is to the top left and you have all the glazing facing that direction?  What if the plot is wide but you won't be able to build deep?  I think it's great to work on what you want/need, but until you have the plot, it's probably premature to go too far down into the detailed design.

 

Having said that, in terms of scale and relative positions of rooms, your layout is startlingly similar to what we built in 2015 in Surrey (ours is a mirror version of this).  If you get to the point where building this is a reality, I'd be happy to share our own experiences in living with this layout.

[Dudda]

As an architect I think it’s crazy trying to design a house when you don’t even have a site in mind. You’ve no idea which way the house faces, where the sun rises, where neighbours may overlook, do you overlook the neighbours, if the site is even flat, where are the views, where is the road, is the road noisy or busy, are all the surrounding houses bungalow or all dormer which could influence planners, is it a conservation area, do any planning restrictions apply, etc.
If you have your ‘perfect’ house planned and then get a site you could end up putting a house on a site which is totally unsuitable and it will be only after you’ve built and move in that you realise this. If you want to think about ideas, design, layouts, materials, etc then set up a Pintrest account and start making albums of what you like and what you don’t like. 
Use a general cost per meter square to work out the costs for now. The site you eventually pick could have very poor access or require a huge amount of ground works so getting a cost of a ‘perfect’ house now isn’t appropriate.
 
Sorry to be negative but this is a huge investment and you want to get it right.

[ragg987]

I agree that designing a house without land makes little sense, however if you view it as an exercise in tuning your requirements then it has value.

 

However, do not under-estimate the impact of emotional investment you (and your family) will make through this exercise. You will need to guard against matching a plot to your scheme else you are likely to reject plots that would be perfectly good, but somehow do not match your ideal. Finding any plot is difficult, finding a plot that matches the design is likely to be futile. Be prepared to rip it all up and start again.

[Kuro507]

28 minutes ago, jack said:

Designing a house before you have the plot is somewhat putting the cart before the horse.  What if north is to the top left and you have all the glazing facing that direction?  What if the plot is wide but you won't be able to build deep?  I think it's great to work on what you want/need, but until you have the plot, it's probably premature to go too far down into the detailed design.

 

Having said that, in terms of scale and relative positions of rooms, your layout is startlingly similar to what we built in 2015 in Surrey (ours is a mirror version of this).  If you get to the point where building this is a reality, I'd be happy to share our own experiences in living with this layout.

 

Great minds think alike

 

The starting point for this house design, was actualy a plot we looked at, but we were not in a position to purchase yet. But it was my intial impetus of designing something that would fit on there and that was not dramiaticaly different in size to the one agreed in planning.

 

I would love to hear how you get on with your layout?

[Kuro507]

25 minutes ago, Dudda said:

As an architect I think it’s crazy trying to design a house when you don’t even have a site in mind. You’ve no idea which way the house faces, where the sun rises, where neighbours may overlook, do you overlook the neighbours, if the site is even flat, where are the views, where is the road, is the road noisy or busy, are all the surrounding houses bungalow or all dormer which could influence planners, is it a conservation area, do any planning restrictions apply, etc.
If you have your ‘perfect’ house planned and then get a site you could end up putting a house on a site which is totally unsuitable and it will be only after you’ve built and move in that you realise this. If you want to think about ideas, design, layouts, materials, etc then set up a Pintrest account and start making albums of what you like and what you don’t like. 
Use a general cost per meter square to work out the costs for now. The site you eventually pick could have very poor access or require a huge amount of ground works so getting a cost of a ‘perfect’ house now isn’t appropriate.
 
Sorry to be negative but this is a huge investment and you want to get it right.

 

No, I think we totally get all of that. But I needed a model to cost up, I have now put together a complex spreadsheet based on this design, so I can cost up all of the bits required.

With such a variation in building materials and finishes, we need an accurate idea of what the design features we like would cost. I need to understand if it will be £900/m/sq or £1,300.

 

I have designed and built a large double storey house extension on a previous home. I had a local family builder build the shell (I was left with bare block walls and floor joists) and then completed all the internal work myself. It nearly killed me as I was going through a divorce in the middle of it too. But, it hasn't put me off the process and I now know which bit I would hapily do myself vs paying somebody.

 

I already have a large pintrest site

[Ferdinand]

That all sounds encouraging (for a successful build process) - you have some scars of experience .

 

When you have been round the block enough that you have worn a groove in the ground to create your own block, then you become an official HOG (= Hoary Old Git).

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ferdinand

[AliG]

I agree with people's comments re matching the house to the site.

 

On the specific design you have the bathroom door over the stairs would break building regs for head height.

 

Only one bedroom has a decent wardrobe. Unless you have a massive preference for freestanding furniture I would have a fitted wardrobe in every bedroom plus other storage/plant room space.

 

As to your question on estimating costs, within reason the design doesn't have that much effect. Large areas of glass as you have shown might add and things like wide spans requiring extra steel or a very complicated roof. But often what causes the swing in the costs is construction and materials choices.

 

Thus if i was you i would think about a few things.

 

1. What specification of house do you want in terms of construction, e.g. target U-Values, double or triple glazing, alu clad or pvc windows, ceiling heights, do you care if it is timber or block built. Higher construction specification will add considerably to the cost and give a more pleasant house to live in whilst maybe not being obvious to other people or adding much to the value. I would guess a good £200-300 per square metre difference between a low and high end construction. Many people on the site are opting for higher end and seem to be seeing higher build costs in the £1300-1500/sq metre range (depends on what you include eg architects, ground surveys, SE etc all add to the cost)

 

2. Can you do any work yourself? This will dramatically reduce the costs.

 

3. I created a list of rooms that I wanted and their sizes. I then let the architect design a house around them to fit the plot. For example 4 bed, 2 en suite, 60sq metre eat in kitchen. If you add all of these up allowing for the hall and storage you will get an idea of the total size of house you need without specifically designing it. A specific design is not needed to get an idea of costs.

 

4. What kind of finishes do you want. Tiles versus carpets, plaster skims, hundreds of LED lights, silestone worktops. Again these will likely produce a reasonably large divergence in the final cost.

[Dudda]

1 minute ago, Kuro507 said:

 

No, I think we totally get all of that. But I needed a model to cost up, I have now put together a complex spreadsheet based on this design, so I can cost up all of the bits required.

With such a variation in building materials and finishes, we need an accurate idea of what the design features we like would cost. I need to understand if it will be £900/m/sq or £1,300.

 

I have designed and built a large double storey house extension on a previous home. I had a local family builder build the shell (I was left with bare block walls and floor joists) and then completed all the internal work myself. It nearly killed me as I was going through a divorce in the middle of it too. But, it hasn't put me off the process and I now know which bit I would hapily do myself vs paying somebody.

 

I already have a large pintrest site

I have to disagree. I don’t think you need to model up a house to cost as it can’t be accurate. Without having a site a lot of these costs are impossible to calculate. Lets take the roof as an example. The surrounding houses and context will influence this to a huge extent. Your sketchup model is a modern low pitched roof with possibly a cheap membrane. However if you're surrounded by dormers you could be forced this route and/or the planners could condition natural slate. This dictates the pitch and the finish and more importantly the cost. Now the cheap low pitch membrane is an expensive dormer with less usable floor area and expensive natural slate. The house plan possibly grows to regain this lost upstairs unusable space and a bedroom has to move downstairs but now you want a shower downstairs in the WC for this bedroom so that gets larger too. The site constraints mean the house can’t get bigger in the direction wanted so the downstairs bedroom and larger WC eat into the kitchen which reduces the huge kitchen and the amount of kitchen units. Now the expensive granite kitchen worktop is reduce in size due to smaller kitchen and as it’s longer and narrower you decide to add an additional window but the window overlooks the neighbours so you swap the office with the downstairs bedroom to allow more light into the kitchen. The bedroom is more enclosed so it changes the dynamic of the whole ground floor open plan. Now you’ve a house with no resemblance to the original all because of the dormer roof with natural slate.

[Bitpipe]

Agree with much of what has already been said - passive houses are much more sensitive to the site orientation due to the need to control solar gain - overheating is a major risk with large expanses of glass in a highly insulated airtight envelope. E.g. we invested in integrated electric blinds for all front east wall windows and all south and east roof windows. Probably need to build a bris soleil or pergola to give us more shading at the rear which faces west.

 

I have friends who built (with an architect) a beautiful contemporary home with big windows onto amazing views - now spending additional £££ on light reflecting solar film as said windows are causing massive glare and overheating. 

 

There's also no real reason why a passive house should cost that much more than one that just complies with regs, the most important 'passive' aspects are in the initial design (PHPP is recommended to estimate performance) and achieving the required insulation and airtightness - the later is more of an on-site attention to detail issue vs big expense in materials.  

 

Many here have used a certain timber frame firm to deliver a passive frame and foundation system that is guaranteed to meet the passive standards - this removes a lot of the complexity in ensuring the design and on site detailing are correct but again, no reason traditional build methods could not achieve the same performance, however you'll need to take much more control of these aspects. 

 

MVHR is usually a £2-3k investment -  you should think on where ducting needs to go and make design provision (vaulted ceilings can be a challenge) - this would appear to be the most common 'gotcha' that many builders on this site face  

 

High performance windows can also be had at a reasonable cost (note though that bifold doors are not usually that airtight, sliders perform much better.) You'll likely save some on having a simpler heating system without the need for rads in every room etc. If you're on mains gas than a traditional system boiler is usually the cheapest and most flexible option - many here use ASHP and electric for DHW, solar PV may be a consideration depending on roof orientation. Forget any kind of woodburner in a passive house, you'll overheat.
 

Practically everything else will be the usual aesthetic vs quality vs cost choice (kitchen, bathrooms, flooring, doors etc, etc..) and this is where the majority of the cost is.

 

£1300 / m2 is potentially achievable but will require a lot of work on your behalf, especially as many material costs have increased by around 20% since the pound dropped in value post Brexit. 

 

That said, well done for putting some deep thought into this already. What you end up with may well bear no resemblance to what you've designed but at least you're thinking it through and seeing some of the compromised that need to be made. The fact that you've done similar before will help.

[ultramods]

I think there is nothing wrong with starting to design your house before you get a plot, in terms of refining/deciding what sort of rooms you would like to have in the house.  And even the layout of rooms such as bedrooms, Kitchen and  bathrooms/ensuites.

 

I had been playing about with designs for 3 years before we arrived at our current design for our site and I think it definitely helped.

 

I saw you mentioned having the design ready for buying the land, are you aware that you would probably need full planning permission (and possibly building warrant) before a mortgage lender would start the application process? Some sellers may be open to selling you the land once you have the funds from lender however others wouldn't wait that long. We have been told by build store that in Scotland planning application can take 6 - 8 weeks, then building warrant takes 6-8 weeks, only once we have building warrant can the mortgage application begin, which can take up to another 3 months.  

[ultramods]

Also looking at the design:

 

1: Entrance to the family bathroom looks like it's actually on the stairs

2: design in build in wardrobes early, as trying to get them in later can impact the design

3: I don't like the idea of entering the master bedroom via the ensuite area

4: possible wasted space in landing area at front between the two bedroom if it's not intended as seating/study area.

5: move the front bedroom doors closer to the stairs to make better use of the area in 4.

6: the space for the dining table may be a bit tight (close to the island), if you have 600 mm units, 1200 mm between units and island and 1200 mm island, that leaves 2800 mm for dining area.

7: why is the island not in a straight line, think it would flow better straight, rather than have the bits at the end.

[Crofter]

Nice Sketchup work, @Kuro507

It's a lot of fun playing around with different ideas. Why not set yourself a few challenges: what would I build if I was constrained by X, or Y. What if it had to be a bungalow, what if it was overlooked on a side, what if the plot was very narrow.

 

I've got to ask though- why are you determined not to use an architect? Admittedly I didn't use one myself, but my project is very small scale and I figured there was only so much that could really be changed about the layout. I then went and totally changed the layout a few weeks ago, just as I was starting to do the internal partitions

[Barney12]

24 minutes ago, ultramods said:

 

I think there is nothing wrong with starting to design your house before you get a plot, in terms of refining/deciding what sort of rooms you would like to have in the house.  And even the layout of rooms such as bedrooms, Kitchen and  bathrooms/ensuites.

 

 

 

 

+1. I think the comments about wasting your time before you've got a plot are entirely wrong. Yes there are elements of design which are going to be heavily influenced by the plot, it's location and the building orientation on the plot BUT you can certainly start to think about spaces, how you use them, features you like or dislike. 

 

One other tip (if you haven't already) is to set up some Pinterest boards and start consolidating various design ideas and inspiration. 

 

We we did exactly as you are doing and many of our thoughts and ideas were taken onboard by our architect and transmitted into our house design. 

 

Keep going! 

[ultramods]

Yes definitely use Pintrest/Houzz. 

 

We used Houzz (basically Pintrest for houses) for finding a lot of ideas, you can filter by room type, style, size etc. And save ideas that you like in your own scrap book(s).

[Kuro507]

52 minutes ago, ultramods said:

Also looking at the design:

 

1: Entrance to the family bathroom looks like it's actually on the stairs

2: design in build in wardrobes early, as trying to get them in later can impact the design

3: I don't like the idea of entering the master bedroom via the ensuite area

4: possible wasted space in landing area at front between the two bedroom if it's not intended as seating/study area.

5: move the front bedroom doors closer to the stairs to make better use of the area in 4.

6: the space for the dining table may be a bit tight (close to the island), if you have 600 mm units, 1200 mm between units and island and 1200 mm island, that leaves 2800 mm for dining area.

7: why is the island not in a straight line, think it would flow better straight, rather than have the bits at the end.

 

I will have a look through those, certainly the upstairs landing area would have a relaxing chair next to the window.

The island would be U shaped, somethign I saw in a store, it would probably have the sink and hob and maybe even a fridge. So most of your day to day stuff would be within a turning circle.

[Kuro507]

54 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Nice Sketchup work, @Kuro507

It's a lot of fun playing around with different ideas. Why not set yourself a few challenges: what would I build if I was constrained by X, or Y. What if it had to be a bungalow, what if it was overlooked on a side, what if the plot was very narrow.

 

I've got to ask though- why are you determined not to use an architect? Admittedly I didn't use one myself, but my project is very small scale and I figured there was only so much that could really be changed about the layout. I then went and totally changed the layout a few weeks ago, just as I was starting to do the internal partitions

 

To be honest, Architects are not cheap. I've had some involvement in appointing one for a Commercial building (new Head Office) and I influenced most of the designs. I found them to be quite unimaginative, whereas we are more than capable of playing with designs ourselves. Finding concepts online that we like and reverse-engineering them.

[Kuro507]

1 hour ago, Bitpipe said:

Agree with much of what has already been said - passive houses are much more sensitive to the site orientation due to the need to control solar gain - overheating is a major risk with large expanses of glass in a highly insulated airtight envelope. E.g. we invested in integrated electric blinds for all front east wall windows and all south and east roof windows. Probably need to build a bris soleil or pergola to give us more shading at the rear which faces west.

 

I have friends who built (with an architect) a beautiful contemporary home with big windows onto amazing views - now spending additional £££ on light reflecting solar film as said windows are causing massive glare and overheating. 

 

There's also no real reason why a passive house should cost that much more than one that just complies with regs, the most important 'passive' aspects are in the initial design (PHPP is recommended to estimate performance) and achieving the required insulation and airtightness - the later is more of an on-site attention to detail issue vs big expense in materials.  

 

Many here have used a certain timber frame firm to deliver a passive frame and foundation system that is guaranteed to meet the passive standards - this removes a lot of the complexity in ensuring the design and on site detailing are correct but again, no reason traditional build methods could not achieve the same performance, however you'll need to take much more control of these aspects. 

 

MVHR is usually a £2-3k investment -  you should think on where ducting needs to go and make design provision (vaulted ceilings can be a challenge) - this would appear to be the most common 'gotcha' that many builders on this site face  

 

High performance windows can also be had at a reasonable cost (note though that bifold doors are not usually that airtight, sliders perform much better.) You'll likely save some on having a simpler heating system without the need for rads in every room etc. If you're on mains gas than a traditional system boiler is usually the cheapest and most flexible option - many here use ASHP and electric for DHW, solar PV may be a consideration depending on roof orientation. Forget any kind of woodburner in a passive house, you'll overheat.
 

Practically everything else will be the usual aesthetic vs quality vs cost choice (kitchen, bathrooms, flooring, doors etc, etc..) and this is where the majority of the cost is.

 

£1300 / m2 is potentially achievable but will require a lot of work on your behalf, especially as many material costs have increased by around 20% since the pound dropped in value post Brexit. 

 

That said, well done for putting some deep thought into this already. What you end up with may well bear no resemblance to what you've designed but at least you're thinking it through and seeing some of the compromised that need to be made. The fact that you've done similar before will help.

 

£1,300 /m2 would probably be impossible for us. We are West Midlands based and need to be much nearer £1,000 per m/sq.

 

Its downstairs space thats important, we will probably end up sepending £200-£250k for a 1acre plot, leaving £200-£250 for the build.

[jack]

12 minutes ago, Kuro507 said:

£1,300 /m2 would probably be impossible for us. We are West Midlands based and need to be much nearer £1,000 per m/sq.

 

That's an very aggressive price, even with you doing a lot yourself.

[Kuro507]

Thats what I'm trying to understand

 

By modeling this in a spreadsheet, using the latest v12 housebuilders bible figures, I'm hoping to be in a place where I can quickly cost up different options.

For example building with ICF or traditional block and block with render.

 

Once I understand things like insulation costs, I can work out different cavity gaps, different cost for the build with more insulation etc.

 

Once I have a final cost, I can work backwards to see where value eningeering can be done. MAking the core structure smaller for example.

[Ferdinand]

Don't underestimate salami-slicing-pricing either. Eg with a Trade Account and Gift Cards bought via many people's work Employee Benefit Programmes it is possible to get a routine 20% off at Wickes, plus whatever discounts and sales they are doing at the time.

 

We have a couple of threads in the General Discussion area.

 

A couple of weeks ago a new member appeared quoting a price for insulation for a new self-build that could be halved without difficulty.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Crofter]

When I costed up my project, I used Wickes online prices for convenience on all applicable items, pulled other prices off website (e..g instant online quotes for roofing sheets) and phoned the BM for the rest.

Interestingly, my budget has ended up within a few hundred pounds of that original estimate. Partly luck, of course, but also because the things that inevitably crept up in price were offset by the value of shopping around when the time came to buy. For example, when I did my bulk purchase of the timber and sheets for the framing, I had estimated about £1500 but it came in at just shy of £1000, because it was a big enough order that I could get three or four BMs interested and haggle the price right down.

 

If I were to build again, I would be bolder with bulk buying and try to get everything at the start. You get a much better reception when you are talking bigger money. You then run the risk of timber warping in storage, sheeting getting rained on, miscalculations in materials, etc- all reasons why I didn't initially do it that way.