Government Schemes!?

[richo106]

Hi All

 

We are planning to have an ASHP in our property that we are renovating/extending etc.

 

I know the current scheme ends March 22 and I won't be installing my system to early 2023 at a guess

 

The installer said that I can apply for the £5000 grant from the government for an ASHP

 

I was just wondering is there any more schemes like the RHI in the pipeline or is it just the £5k grant

 

Many Thanks

[markc]

Don’t bother, why pay more than £5k over the odds to get £5K back.

 

[IanR]

There's just the BUS (Boiler Upgrade Scheme) starting in April to replace RHI for Heat Pumps, that provides the £5K grant for Air Source and £6K for Ground Source.

[JohnMo]

Or buy one yourself at the time get local plumber and electrician to install.  £3-4k all in, instead of £15-17 being quoted on other threads, they may get a fair bit back over 7 years, but have to spend now.

[Kevm]

26 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Or buy one yourself at the time get local plumber and electrician to install.  £3-4k all in, instead of £15-17 being quoted on other threads, they may get a fair bit back over 7 years, but have to spend now.

 

Where do you get your numbers from?  My ASHP plus cylinder, controller and other electrical and piping bits was £9k or so for the materials.  I've looked and it's even more now.  I spent £16k to get from no central heating at all to a fully working system commissioned to MCS standards with 13 radiators.  Yes I had to pay up front but I'll get £11,300 back, CPI linked.  I'm glad I got in before the end of RHI.

 

And you need installers to know what they are doing; I wouldn't trust some local plumbers I've met to change a tap washer. 

[JohnMo]

eBay - GRANT HPID6 AERONA³ AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMP 6kW INVERTER DRIVEN ASHP inc controller £2k.  Others available from £1200.

 

300l uvc pre plumbed £1k.

 

£1k for stuff and install.

 

My price does not include UFH or radiators.

[Kevm]

Fair enough, you can get a  6kW ASHP and cylinder delivered to your house for £3k.   I ended up with a slightly more expensive one, like this. 

 

eBay -  Mitsubishi 14Kw Ecodan Air Source Heat Pump with 300ltr cylinder - £9669.85

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dpmiller]

https://coolenergyshop.com/collections/heat-pump-packages/products/invertech-range-package-builder?variant=32344234360921

[SBMS]

We've done a lot of research into ASHP for our self build, and I think it's a really difficult topic to approach because there's a huge amount of noise surrounding people's perceptions of "MCS Certified installers".  I've been converted from looking at LPG for our off grid self buil, doing a tonne of research into ASHP, upping my build insulation spec and settling on ASHP. 

 

However, I keep seeing the same comments regarding 'inflated' prices for MCS certified installs of ASHP (that offset any incentive schemes such as RHI, or BUS).  Maybe that's some people's experiences; it's not been mine.  I'm also not sure why this particular element of self build people are happy to either DIY install, or give to a yellow-pages plumber, as if there are no expertise involved in the design and commissioning of a system. There doesn't seem to be the same approach to other skilled areas of building (such as foundations, or roof construction!)

 

Firstly, what I would say is that, in my opinion, an MCS certified install should be worth its money, when considering the "Boiler Upgrade Scheme" grant.  With the greatest respect to commenters like @markc ("Don’t bother, why pay more than £5k over the odds to get £5K back.") - this has not been my experience from getting quotes, and it shouldn't be anyone else's.  If it is, you've found a dodgy installer and you should try someone else!  But I don't think a few bad apples should spoil the bunch.

 

The links that I've seen time and again for ASHP DIY (or 'bring your own plumber') installs are - a 2k ASHP, a 1k Cylinder, Maybe a buffer (who knows) and no mention of pipework, electricals, labour etc. So on this basis, at a first glance you might think "well I can install a properly sized, warrantied ASHP for £3k - maybe 3.5k including the plumber's labour". I'd challenge that. Most quotes we've received back from MCS certified installers are in the 10k-11k region.  Picking that higher end 11k quote, that can be broken down to:

 

Nibe 2040 12kw Air Source Heat Pump
Nibe 300L Heat Pump Cylinder
100L Buffer
SMO20 Controller
Nibe VST 11 Valve
Nibe HR10 Valve
Pipework
MCS and Commission of System

 

So this system, after the BUS grant of £5k will cost us £6k. For reference, the Nibe heatpump retails at around £7k. Let's assume installers can pick that up for 5k-6k. It's in a similar price range for Ecodans, Panasonic and Samsung units.  I appreciate the Nibe is a more expensive unit, but I'd really question a price differential on the unit of £4k - can we really say that we're comparing apples with apples when we're pitching an MCS, 7-year warrantied install with what you can pick up on ebay?  By my reckoning, you shouldn't be paying more than £11-12k for an MSC Certified ASHP install, and in my view, after the BUS grant of £5k that system should be costing you the same as the installed heat pump. So you should look at the grant as providing a cylinder, buffer, controllers, commissioning, pipework, labour, MCS Certification and 5-7 year warranty for 'free'.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[IanR]

2 hours ago, SBMS said:

Picking that higher end 11k quote, that can be broken down to:

 

Nibe 2040 12kw Air Source Heat Pump
Nibe 300L Heat Pump Cylinder
100L Buffer
SMO20 Controller
Nibe VST 11 Valve
Nibe HR10 Valve
Pipework
MCS and Commission of System

 

Very similar to my own install. I paid a few hundred pound more the same ASHP, the 500l version of the UVC, the 200l version of the buffer, plus the cooling module and MODBUS unit, fully installed including all brass and copper.

 

There's quite a few on the forum that paid similar amounts for MCS Installs, but there does seem to be a lot of quotes for +40% more, so some companies do try it on. With RHI soon to be replaced by a lower grant, I expect the companies inclined to profit from the grant are making the most out of the rush to get systems installed and commissioned before the deadline.

[richo106]

11 hours ago, SBMS said:

We've done a lot of research into ASHP for our self build, and I think it's a really difficult topic to approach because there's a huge amount of noise surrounding people's perceptions of "MCS Certified installers".  I've been converted from looking at LPG for our off grid self buil, doing a tonne of research into ASHP, upping my build insulation spec and settling on ASHP. 

 

However, I keep seeing the same comments regarding 'inflated' prices for MCS certified installs of ASHP (that offset any incentive schemes such as RHI, or BUS).  Maybe that's some people's experiences; it's not been mine.  I'm also not sure why this particular element of self build people are happy to either DIY install, or give to a yellow-pages plumber, as if there are no expertise involved in the design and commissioning of a system. There doesn't seem to be the same approach to other skilled areas of building (such as foundations, or roof construction!)

 

Firstly, what I would say is that, in my opinion, an MCS certified install should be worth its money, when considering the "Boiler Upgrade Scheme" grant.  With the greatest respect to commenters like @markc ("Don’t bother, why pay more than £5k over the odds to get £5K back.") - this has not been my experience from getting quotes, and it shouldn't be anyone else's.  If it is, you've found a dodgy installer and you should try someone else!  But I don't think a few bad apples should spoil the bunch.

 

The links that I've seen time and again for ASHP DIY (or 'bring your own plumber') installs are - a 2k ASHP, a 1k Cylinder, Maybe a buffer (who knows) and no mention of pipework, electricals, labour etc. So on this basis, at a first glance you might think "well I can install a properly sized, warrantied ASHP for £3k - maybe 3.5k including the plumber's labour". I'd challenge that. Most quotes we've received back from MCS certified installers are in the 10k-11k region.  Picking that higher end 11k quote, that can be broken down to:

 

Nibe 2040 12kw Air Source Heat Pump
Nibe 300L Heat Pump Cylinder
100L Buffer
SMO20 Controller
Nibe VST 11 Valve
Nibe HR10 Valve
Pipework
MCS and Commission of System

 

So this system, after the BUS grant of £5k will cost us £6k. For reference, the Nibe heatpump retails at around £7k. Let's assume installers can pick that up for 5k-6k. It's in a similar price range for Ecodans, Panasonic and Samsung units.  I appreciate the Nibe is a more expensive unit, but I'd really question a price differential on the unit of £4k - can we really say that we're comparing apples with apples when we're pitching an MCS, 7-year warrantied install with what you can pick up on ebay?  By my reckoning, you shouldn't be paying more than £11-12k for an MSC Certified ASHP install, and in my view, after the BUS grant of £5k that system should be costing you the same as the installed heat pump. So you should look at the grant as providing a cylinder, buffer, controllers, commissioning, pipework, labour, MCS Certification and 5-7 year warranty for 'free'.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

Thank you very much for this reply, this sounds exactly like me in the terms of upping my original spec to make an ASHP worthwhile

 

I am awaiting a couple of quotes from MCS certified installers

 

How easy was it to get the government 5k grant? When would I need to apply for it?

 

Many Thanks

[IanR]

8 minutes ago, richo106 said:

How easy was it to get the government 5k grant? When would I need to apply for it?

 

The full process is not yet laid out, the obligatory "Consultation" has just closed, so assume Ofgem will provide more information on how the scheme will run in the next few weeks.

 

If you read the Consultation it appears the installers will need to apply for a voucher on behalf of the home owner, so the application needs to be made prior to the install, unlike RHI.

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/boiler-upgrade-scheme-bus

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/consultation-ofgems-administration-boiler-upgrade-scheme

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-12/Administration of the Boiler Upgrade Scheme - Ofgemconsultation.pdf

 

[SBMS]

25 minutes ago, richo106 said:

I am awaiting a couple of quotes from MCS certified installers

Where in the country are you based?

[richo106]

16 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Where in the country are you based?

Midlands

 

Between Nottingham & Leicester 

[SteamyTea]

12 hours ago, SBMS said:

If it is, you've found a dodgy installer and you should try someone else!  But I don't think a few bad apples should spoil the bunch.

Having worked for an MCS company, I tend to agree that some are good.

Trouble is, you don't know they are bad until it goes wrong.

And claiming via the MCS is set up to be impossible.

[SuperJohnG]

This is quite interesting  and I'll maybe look down this route having planned a DIY install already to compare the two

 

 

[SBMS]

12 hours ago, IanR said:

 

Very similar to my own install. I paid a few hundred pound more the same ASHP, the 500l version of the UVC, the 200l version of the buffer, plus the cooling module and MODBUS unit, fully installed including all brass and copper.

 

There's quite a few on the forum that paid similar amounts for MCS Installs, but there does seem to be a lot of quotes for +40% more, so some companies do try it on. With RHI soon to be replaced by a lower grant, I expect the companies inclined to profit from the grant are making the most out of the rush to get systems installed and commissioned before the deadline.

How do you find the Nibe? Was there any particular reason you went for this model?

[IanR]

1 hour ago, SBMS said:

How do you find the Nibe? Was there any particular reason you went for this model?

 

Back when I ordered it, the Nibe had one of the better SCOPs, as well as cooling out-of-the-box (if you added the cooling module), avoiding the need for any hack. The MODBUS also allowed for connection to Loxone, including cooling control.

 

The SCOP of the competitors has improved, and I'd expect inter-connectivity also. If cooling is also available (OTB) then I'd have more choice making the decision today.

I've found the NIbe as good as could be expected, It requires very little attention, just getting on with the job.

Edited February 8, 2022 by IanR

[SBMS]

7 hours ago, IanR said:

 

Back when I ordered it, the Nibe had one of the better SCOPs, as well as cooling out-of-the-box (if you added the cooling module), avoiding the need for any hack. The MODBUS also allowed for connection to Loxone, including cooling control.

 

The SCOP of the competitors has improved, and I'd expect inter-connectivity also. If cooling is also available (OTB) then I'd have more choice making the decision today.

I've found the NIbe as good as could be expected, It requires very little attention, just getting on with the job.

Can you explain how the cooling function works? I’ve never really understood it! I’m guessing it cools the water in the UFH and brings the slab temperature down? Does this also work in the upstairs radiators?

[IanR]

35 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Can you explain how the cooling function works? I’ve never really understood it! I’m guessing it cools the water in the UFH and brings the slab temperature down? Does this also work in the upstairs radiators?

 

Yes, ASHP effectively runs in reverse, removing energy from the fluid in the "heating" system and passing it to the outside air. Since I have a buffer tank feeding my UFH, it cools the buffer, which is then circulated through the UFH, cooling the slab.

 

You have to be careful to not reduce any un-insulated surfaces to below the dew point, otherwise condensation will form. 14°C should generally be safe. I can run my buffer down to around 12°C which can reduce the slab surface temp to 18°C, without any risk of condensation and I find that quite effective at controlling over-heating, although I do take other measures to reduce solar gain.

I've no experience of cooling via radiators, I would imagine, due to the smaller surface area, you would need to drop the temp further for it to be effective, which would then likely put you in condensation territory. Happy to be corrected if others have it working.

 

Others also use fan coil units, cooled via their ASHP, which are reported to be effective. For this it would be relatively easy to insulate all the pipework to allow the ASHP to reduce the temp to its minimum, perhaps 7°C for some quite effective air cooling.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by IanR

[Marvin]

38 minutes ago, IanR said:

I've no experience of cooling via radiators, I would imagine, due to the smaller surface area, you would need to drop the temp further for it to be effective, which would then likely put you in condensation territory. Happy to be corrected if others have it working.

Yes, when we ran it through our radiators at 18C we had condensation on the radiators. Also at risk is any uninsulated pipe and the Buffer tank.

 

38 minutes ago, IanR said:

Others also use fan coil units, cooled via their ASHP, which are reported to be effective. For this it would be relatively easy to insulate all the pipework to allow the ASHP to reduce the temp to its minimum, perhaps 7°C for some quite effective air cooling.

We are yet to run our coils on cold, however don't forget the coils will create condensation which must drained away somehow. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Marvin
Add info

[eandg]

12 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

This is quite interesting  and I'll maybe look down this route having planned a DIY install already to compare the two

 

 

£7.5k cashback towards the cost in Scotland - new scheme will be launched at some point through Home Energy Scotland - so should cost you less than a new boiler. 

[SuperJohnG]

10 minutes ago, eandg said:

£7.5k cashback towards the cost in Scotland - new scheme will be launched at some point through Home Energy Scotland - so should cost you less than a new boiler. 

Just depends how they pay it and when they get the scheme going, God knows why we can't just do things at the same time here. 

 

Did you get going yet with yours for RHI? 

[eandg]

12 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

Just depends how they pay it and when they get the scheme going, God knows why we can't just do things at the same time here. 

 

Did you get going yet with yours for RHI? 

No, had to have completion and an EPC for March 31. They can pay in advance according to installers.