TonyT Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 4 way Cassette air con units hung on screwed rod to get the heaters closer down to the working area with the destrat fans some infrared panels? Build a masonary stove? warm white lighting to give impression of warmer environment insulation? combination of all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudda Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Is it just you that works here? I'd be looking to build a mini insulated building within the larger building. This smaller insulated building would be very cheap as it could be a simple cheap timber frame with insulation between. It doesn't need to be waterproof as it's already inside. Have one area 6x7m or so for the car you're working on with an office, toilet, etc all fully insulated, airtight and warm. Large insulated door into this area. The rest is left alone. You'll have to move the car you're working on into and out of the insulated work area which could be a deal breaker making this suggestion unworkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 14 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Yes, huge. Though in the afternoon, it gets progressively shaded by the trees. The roof less so. I saw you post one of these, but cant find it now Is this really going to work on a british cold wet december? I know solar thermal evacuated tubes work even on a cloudy day due to IR radiation that gets through. Must build a big test bed can heater... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, TonyT said: 4 way Cassette air con units hung on screwed rod to get the heaters closer down to the working area with the destrat fans some infrared panels? Build a masonary stove? warm white lighting to give impression of warmer environment insulation? combination of all? Clearly insulation is a key part of whatever i do. The good thing is i understand that. What i dont really understand is my solar, gshp or ashp options, and the likely cost to instal and/or run them on a building this size. Hence my question about power consumption on the heat pump you posted. Munching heaps of electricity isnt something i can really afford to do long term. Likewise with infra red. Have a couple at work. 3kw each. Thats not going to fly if im paying the bill. I know this can never be free, but i do need to get the running costs down. Happy to make and adapt stuff, I liked my idea of circulating water from underground through the slab at 10 degress or so. So just a pump to circulate. But im not finding any info on this. That could be because its a crap idea, or that for most peoples applications, 10 degrees is no use at all. But for a workshop a background 10c from the slab would be most welcome and a useful addition to any heat inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On a trading estate near me they literally sprayed the inside walls and ceiling with Icynene. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Big space, no insulation, big bucks to heat!!! My workshop is similar, I did put a heater above the bench facing me when working on the bench. Frankly even warm clothes only go so far, when your fingers are cold they don’t work properly. I rarely work out there In The winter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dudda said: Is it just you that works here? I'd be looking to build a mini insulated building within the larger building. This smaller insulated building would be very cheap as it could be a simple cheap timber frame with insulation between. It doesn't need to be waterproof as it's already inside. Have one area 6x7m or so for the car you're working on with an office, toilet, etc all fully insulated, airtight and warm. Large insulated door into this area. The rest is left alone. You'll have to move the car you're working on into and out of the insulated work area which could be a deal breaker making this suggestion unworkable. Yes. Its just a hobby, not work. I intend to do just this for the "off car" stuff. Which will probably be 30% of the space. But its the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Onoff said: On a trading estate near me they literally sprayed the inside walls and ceiling with Icynene. A good solution. But would be circa £10k doing it myself. If i knew what i was doing! Knauf 20mm space blankets supported by netting would be sub £2k. Which at the moment looks the best option on the insulation front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: Big space, no insulation, big bucks to heat!!! My workshop is similar, I did put a heater above the bench facing me when working on the bench. Frankly even warm clothes only go so far, when your fingers are cold they don’t work properly. I rarely work out there In The winter. Indeed. Thats where i am. Insulation will work upto a point. but its big, very big. Solar is free (once its built) and with enough, you could overcome some of the losses. Maybe? Dont really know. Just how big an array would i need to work in winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 9 hours ago, Roger440 said: What materials though Shredded paper, old duvets/blankets. 9 hours ago, Roger440 said: Humour me, are you guys talking air souce heat pumps here? Yes, air2air ones. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324884906941 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 IR is definitely the ticket here unless you actually have a need to condition all the air in the space. Any of the smaller garages or workshops I go into use the Infrasun style diesel heaters to make specific working areas comfortable and they work remarkably well https://www.powertoolsdirect.com/sip-1822-infrared-diesel-paraffin-heater or the baby version https://www.dwtoolshop.com/sealey-ir20-infrared-paraffin-kerosene-diesel-heater-20-5kw-230v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, dpmiller said: IR is definitely the ticket here unless you actually have a need to condition all the air in the space. But no better than electrical resistance heating, and more expensive to buy. The OP wants free heating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 back to the waste oil option then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 17 minutes ago, dpmiller said: back to the waste oil option then Not legal now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 not illegal, just pointlessly expensive to license correctly as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, dpmiller said: not illegal, just pointlessly expensive to license correctly as I understand it. Chapter IV of the Industrial Emissions Directive You may get an excemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 10 hours ago, Roger440 said: 240v only on site Nowhere on that link does it say what the power consumption is. One presumes a lot. My old waste oil burner is 180000btu and struggles to heat it. From the datasheet 5~6kW, with a COP around thee or so, therefore around 16kW of heat output for 5kW input. With insulation you could bring that 1800000btu down to something closer to 60000. However, it might even be overkill in a partitioned off area,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 13 hours ago, Roger440 said: I liked my idea of circulating water from underground through the slab at 10 degress or so. So just a pump to circulate. But im not finding any info on this. That could be because its a crap idea, or that for most peoples applications, 10 degrees is no use at all. But for a workshop a background 10c from the slab would be most welcome and a useful addition to any heat inputs. So that involves installing UFH in a car garage, with significant point loads and movement from shuffling vehicles around, lifting on trolley jacks etc, sooooo, lots of cost putting at least 80-90mm of 10mm concrete mix down with next to no insulation? The recovered heat energy from the ground loops would be so negligible it would fall flat afaic, so your requisite for a "background heat of 10oC" would likely need a supply temp into UFH of north of 20oC after the delta between floor and emitter has been input to the equation. Also you'd need LOTS of the heat energy so LOTS of brine loop in huge trenches all 1000mm deep and 1500mm min apart for each pair of ground collection pipes. I do like the idea, it's just the sheer scale of this that has to provoke a reality check. The real issue would be spending good money on a failed experiment, and to not have any funds for the second attempt. Can you get a winter-long supply of dry enough wood to burn? I'd seriously look at a wood burning stove with back boiler or a second hand log gasification boiler and a TS connected to some massive ( second hand if possible ) radiators, plus the de-Strat fans. Put the WBS into a masonry cave with a bent ( curved ) sheet of stainless behind it, set back a couple of foot, to reflect the emitted heat forward only. Some internal space around it for seasoning would then ensure cheap ( green ) wood can be bought in and dried in-house to further reduce fuel costs. Electricity is soon to flatline at 30+ p/kwh and economy tariffs will fizzle out, so any direct electricity based solution will end up being far too expensive to run during the day. You can get away with quite low temp at high volume, so if you go for fan coil units you can literally just blow the warmed air directly towards yourself, so one big ASHP running at 40oC flow temp could tick the boxes with you strategizing which FCU you used subject to where you were working ( say 2 units on wheels connected to flexis which you could turn and point ). It's cost on cost whichever way you cut this, simply due to the size of the building, so the biggest focus here should be on what will be cost effective long term, so it has to be insulation and draughtproofing, so you keep whatever warmth you create inside the building. Insulation is pointless unless you go for at least 2 big de-Strat fans up high. If seasoned wood can be sourced reliably, initially, then that ( or anything else suitable that could go in a WBS ) would be my choice. Obtaining cheap / unwanted problematic green ( wet ) wood and then seasoning it yourself going forward would help keep costs down in the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 10 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Chapter IV of the Industrial Emissions Directive You may get an excemption. TBH, not that interested in the legal angle, though im aware of it. But a good regular supply of oil isnt something i have any more. Theres also the recent prosecution of a garage who let someone take away waste oil, who, through his own stupidity killed himself. But the garage we found culpable. Strangley enough, there an increasing reluctance to do so, aside from the lack of being a licensed waste carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: So that involves installing UFH in a car garage, with significant point loads and movement from shuffling vehicles around, lifting on trolley jacks etc, sooooo, lots of cost putting at least 80-90mm of 10mm concrete mix down with next to no insulation? The recovered heat energy from the ground loops would be so negligible it would fall flat afaic, so your requisite for a "background heat of 10oC" would likely need a supply temp into UFH of north of 20oC after the delta between floor and emitter has been input to the equation. Also you'd need LOTS of the heat energy so LOTS of brine loop in huge trenches all 1000mm deep and 1500mm min apart for each pair of ground collection pipes. I do like the idea, it's just the sheer scale of this that has to provoke a reality check. The real issue would be spending good money on a failed experiment, and to not have any funds for the second attempt. Can you get a winter-long supply of dry enough wood to burn? I'd seriously look at a wood burning stove with back boiler or a second hand log gasification boiler and a TS connected to some massive ( second hand if possible ) radiators, plus the de-Strat fans. Put the WBS into a masonry cave with a bent ( curved ) sheet of stainless behind it, set back a couple of foot, to reflect the emitted heat forward only. Some internal space around it for seasoning would then ensure cheap ( green ) wood can be bought in and dried in-house to further reduce fuel costs. Electricity is soon to flatline at 30+ p/kwh and economy tariffs will fizzle out, so any direct electricity based solution will end up being far too expensive to run during the day. You can get away with quite low temp at high volume, so if you go for fan coil units you can literally just blow the warmed air directly towards yourself, so one big ASHP running at 40oC flow temp could tick the boxes with you strategizing which FCU you used subject to where you were working ( say 2 units on wheels connected to flexis which you could turn and point ). It's cost on cost whichever way you cut this, simply due to the size of the building, so the biggest focus here should be on what will be cost effective long term, so it has to be insulation and draughtproofing, so you keep whatever warmth you create inside the building. Insulation is pointless unless you go for at least 2 big de-Strat fans up high. If seasoned wood can be sourced reliably, initially, then that ( or anything else suitable that could go in a WBS ) would be my choice. Obtaining cheap / unwanted problematic green ( wet ) wood and then seasoning it yourself going forward would help keep costs down in the future. Some good points as always. With regard to the pre existing slab, yes, tricky. Putting another concrete/screed layer is probably not a great idea, though i couldnt see why i cant chase the floor for the pipe and fill with expoxy. Noisy, messy, but should work. i think! Yes, a bit of heat loss as slab not insulated. But i can insulate everything else. With regard to my ground loop idea, i see where you are coming from. I'll work on the basis you know more than i do. What if the same lops went via solar panels? Or just solar panels? Again, no heat pump, just a circulation pump? The cost of electricity is the killer. As Radian above suggested with the air to air heat pump, i could get my consumption down to 5KW, but thats going to be north of £10 a DAY. £300 a month. Just on heating. Not going to happen. Steamy says i want free heating. Whilst im not expecting zero cost, £100 a month was more my target, excluding any capital costs, ie insulation. Ive avoided the wood burning idea, because it a) produces a bucket load of fine particulates which im nott keen on, b) its labour intensive and requires it to be got started before any actual work takes place, and c) i dont have a supply, though thats not to say i couldnt potentially find one. But accept that its a potentially cost effective way of injecting a lot of heat quite quickly. Or with a gasifaction boiler i gues i could still heat the slab? What does a lorry load of freshly cut down timber cost? Direct from the forest? Ive no idea. Still feels like an ecological catastrophe though. As you observe, the cost of electricity is only going one way, so my focus has been on reducing its consumption in my stream of (mostly) impractical or impossible ideas. Im still taken with the idea of solar thermal into a milk tanker to use in winter, but still have no idea if thats remotely enough hot water to have any useful impact? Edited to add, i dont mind spending my own time on stuff to save money rather than buy an "off the shelf solution and will give most things a go, so long as the electrical side doesnt get too complicated. Edited February 1, 2022 by Roger440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Roger440 said: With regard to the pre existing slab, yes, tricky. Putting another concrete/screed layer is probably not a great idea, though i couldnt see why i cant chase the floor for the pipe and fill with expoxy. Noisy, messy, but should work. i think! Yes, a bit of heat loss as slab not insulated. But i can insulate everything else. As Mrs Loud said "Stop right there!" @Jeremy Harris who used to frequent here had 300mm of EPS under his 100mm concrete slab. The walls and ceilings were similarly "super" insulated. He had good airtightness. He calculated 8% of his heat loss was through the slab. I'll say again he had 300mm of EPS under there. Edited February 1, 2022 by Onoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysimon Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 go round all the building sites, check out facebook, gumtree etc and pick up all the off cuts of insulation. keep insulating the roof until it gets warmer in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Right, let us get serious about this. Rough sketch of the place, with dimensions and roof angles. Compass orientation as well. Any chance of a wind turbine? https://windempowerment.org/the-piggott-turbine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Just as an aside, how many months a year will you need this heating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 40 minutes ago, Onoff said: As Mrs Loud said "Stop right there!" @Jeremy Harris who used to frequent here had 300mm of EPS under his 100mm concrete slab. The walls and ceilings were similarly "super" insulated. He had good airtightness. He calculated 8% of his heat loss was through the slab. I'll say again he had 300mm of EPS under there. Thats as may be, but realistically there is nothing i can do about it. Short of digging up the flor and starting again. Thats defintely not happening! My understanding was circa 15% loss downwards without insulation. But that just what i read. That i cant do anything about it makes it all the more important that the solution is cheap to operate in the longer term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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