Smart House

[Catapulta]

Morning! Wanted to know your thoughts about Smart Home devices, such as automated light switch, smart door lock, smart heating system and day-night curtain control. I have some smart devices now, such as robot vacuum cleaner, smart speaker and a smart box for my tv, to be honest these things made my life a little bit easier, even my dishwasher has an integrated smart platform and can be controlled by an app on your phone but it needs to be loaded manually, I am just a lazy typo and I want to automate as much as I can.

[ProDave]

I can see some merit in smart light control, self closing curtains etc.  BUT I can see no merit whatsoever in a smart dishwasher or fridge etc.  That is a "solution looking for a problem"

[Dudda]

Just now, ProDave said:

I can see some merit in smart light control, self closing curtains etc.  BUT I can see no merit whatsoever in a smart dishwasher or fridge etc.  That is a "solution looking for a problem"

As smart meters roll out in time we should get more dynamic pricing and time of use tariffs from suppliers. Lets say in the middle of a stormy night a lot of renewable energy is generated and the grid gets overloaded. This energy is offered free or at a tiny rate at a certain time for a short period while overloaded. A notification is sent and then the Dishwasher or washing machine is turned on to utilize the free or super cheap power. Otherwise it knows the program selected and duration of the wash and turns on so the wash ends before the regular night rate period ends.

Alternatively before heading off to work you load the dishwasher and washing machine. When the PV have filled up your batteries a notification is sent to the washine machine which starts. Once this is finished and provided the PV are still looking to export the dishwasher starts. 

I know smart fridges can help make shopping lists but I can't see the benefit in that.

[Radian]

31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

BUT I can see no merit whatsoever in a smart dishwasher or fridge etc. 

 

I would say that, with the right API's, being able to defer the energy usage of these kinds of appliances in conjunction with dynamic energy pricing can be useful.

 

Edit: Dudda just got in before me on this ?

Edited January 13, 2022 by Radian

[billt]

1 hour ago, Dudda said:

A notification is sent and then the Dishwasher or washing machine is turned on to utilize the free or super cheap power. Otherwise it knows the program selected and duration of the wash and turns on so the wash ends before the regular night rate period ends.

 

If you've managed to load the WM and dishwasher appropriately before hand.

 

The amounts of money saved by doing this are trivial, typical WM/DW use about 1-1.5kWh per cycle so you're talking about saving 20p a go for the sake of a lot of inconvenience. The washing machine has just finished - it used 1kWh.

[MikeSharp01]

4 minutes ago, billt said:

so you're talking about saving 20p

Yes but by April it might be 30p! - starts to make a bit more sense. Our Washing machine runs 4 loads a week so that is £1:20 PW or £62 PA sounds like not much but anything cut by 20% is a 20% saving, its just a scale thing in the end. If we all used 20% less the demand would decrease and so would the price - economics 101, although 102, or some such, says if you are a monopoly supplier then you don't have to obey 101! 

[SteamyTea]

Smart homes are great, until you misplace your phone. What happens when the provider stops updating the service, or removes the service.

Have our lives become so busy that we cannot switch a light on at night, or we have become so weak and pampered that the house must be at the right temperature just in case 'we get a chill'.

 

Don't was time, effort or money. Just get your house as airtight and as well insulated as you can. It will be cheaper.

Edited January 13, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Dudda]

5 minutes ago, billt said:

 

If you've managed to load the WM and dishwasher appropriately before hand.

 

The amounts of money saved by doing this are trivial, typical WM/DW use about 1-1.5kWh per cycle so you're talking about saving 20p a go for the sake of a lot of inconvenience. The washing machine has just finished - it used 1kWh.

True the savings are minimal. I'm not arguing that point although for a family with small kids and multiple washes a day they do add up. I'm arguing ProDave's point of "no merit whatsoever". There is merit, albeit it relatively small, from a financial and environmental view.

 

I'd also disagree with your point of a "lot of inconvenience". We put dirty dishes into the dishwasher straight away as do most people and close the door to keep any potential smells in. If a smart one senses a full or partial full load in the middle of the night and turns on automatically then I'd argue that's more convenient than having to remember to turn it on. Smart appliances now also let you add huge amounts of detergent and they dispense the correct amount based on the size / weight of the load and programme selected so it's not an issue of having to remember to add detergent either or think about how much to add. That's the opposite and a lot more convenient. 

[ProDave]

21 minutes ago, Dudda said:

True the savings are minimal. I'm not arguing that point although for a family with small kids and multiple washes a day they do add up. I'm arguing ProDave's point of "no merit whatsoever". There is merit, albeit it relatively small, from a financial and environmental view.

If your wife will tolerate putting the washing in the machine and then waiting some unknown time before the electricity is cheap enough to process it, she is more tolerant than mine. 

[billt]

31 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Yes but by April it might be 30p! - starts to make a bit more sense. Our Washing machine runs 4 loads a week so that is £1:20 PW or £62 PA sounds like not much but anything cut by 20% is a 20% saving, its just a scale thing in the end. If we all used 20% less the demand would decrease and so would the price - economics 101, although 102, or some such, says if you are a monopoly supplier then you don't have to obey 101! 

 

But delaying the start of a wash cycle isn't reducing the energy usage it's just changing the time at which energy is used, so not reducing demand at all. Also the cost reduction is actually going to be much less than 20p. I don't know what the "smart" tariff rates actually are but I doubt that there's more than a 2:1 swing most of the time, so the savings actually only 10p a go (or 15p after April).

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but supply and demand isn't working in energy markets at the moment. the rapid price increases have no relationship to demand and a lot to do with local incompetence and global politics.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If your wife will tolerate putting the washing in the machine and then waiting some unknown time before the electricity is cheap enough to process it, she is more tolerant than mine. 

Many years ago when I first started lecturing, and was in the process of moving house, I forgot to get my laundry sorted. So went to work with no knickers on.

Was delivering my lecturer and then thought, 'i got no pants on, wonder if the students know'.

Was a good delivery.

[Carrerahill]

3 hours ago, Catapulta said:

Morning! Wanted to know your thoughts about Smart Home devices, such as automated light switch, smart door lock, smart heating system and day-night curtain control. I have some smart devices now, such as robot vacuum cleaner, smart speaker and a smart box for my tv, to be honest these things made my life a little bit easier, even my dishwasher has an integrated smart platform and can be controlled by an app on your phone but it needs to be loaded manually, I am just a lazy typo and I want to automate as much as I can.

Depends on so many things, how big is your house? What do you want it to do? How lazy are you, are we talking turn the lights on and off, switch on the heating? Doesn't exactly need a nerve centre to deal with that.

 

I have a level of smart home control in my house, mainly for external and internal lighting circuits. I was going to tie the boiler into it too, but I stopped when I realised that I have a system that works and works well. So I decided not to be so stupid and leave it all alone.

 

I might add some more stuff, we have blinds in our living room that when we change the blinds I would like to automate so that when we are on holiday we can create the look of presence. 

 

I like toys if I am honest, but I am also wise with my money so I draw the line, it needs to give be real benefit.

 

I am working on a clients house at the moment, they want toys, so we are designing in about £750K of M&E toys. He doesn't need much of it, but he can afford it and it will be good fun I suppose as he is an tech specialist who likes toys.

[Adrian Walker]

2 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

about £750K of M&E toys.

 

Really 3/4 £million ?

[joth]

16 minutes ago, billt said:

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but supply and demand isn't working in energy markets at the moment.

aside from market economics (and lack there of - fossil fuel is more dictated by global politics than market conditions as we all know), If you have (a lot) of solar PV, you can get "effectively free" supply at certain times, and this does make load shifting a very desirable anyway.

Linking back to the OP - I built out my house with a lot of "smart home" tech (full Loxone system self installed) and this enables all sorts of neat things. For example it's very cold but sunny here today, and I just noticed that the solar redirect to immersion was hunting for the set-point a lot because the of other devices turning on and off at a low frequency. So I've now integrated all the resistive heating elements in the house (immersion heater, 3 towel rads and 2 UFH mats) under a single PID controller which pulse-width modulates the solid-state relays that control each of them, meaning that as the PV generation increases and we have excess power, it slowly turns the dial up on all the heating elements in the house, to use the excess. Obviously it's all tied to the house temperature, so as the inside temp increases to target the amount redirected to towel rads and UFH mats is capped and gradually scales back, letting more into the immersion heater.

 

I could do this without a smart home system, but rewiring lots of devices to come from a single hardware PV redirect controller, but as I'd already built the whole lot out using Loxone it was a software only (graphical editor) change to add this additional level of intelligent control.

It's really building management system, with automations. I don't really like the term "smart home" as everyone imagines humans shouting commands at the appliances and nothing more. I much prefer this idea that the house handles stuff automatically, no need for barking voice commands all the time.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by joth

[Dudda]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If your wife will tolerate putting the washing in the machine and then waiting some unknown time before the electricity is cheap enough to process it, she is more tolerant than mine. 

No... I said above it will come on before the night rate ends. If you're asleep in bed does it really matter if it comes on at 1am or 5am? Or if at work and not back until 6pm in the evening does it matter if it comes on at 11am or 3pm to suit available PV?  My machine has a 'Finish By time" setting.

 

[joth]

3 minutes ago, Adrian Walker said:

 

Really 3/4 £million ?

I guess that's going in heavy on the "M" of M&E.

 

Throw in a moving floor swimming pool, automated glass walls, some cinema automation theatrics  and so on, it'll soon eat a 7 figure sum.

 

[Carrerahill]

10 minutes ago, Adrian Walker said:

 

Really 3/4 £million ?

Yup, and it just increased this morning as he wants a centralised ventilation system.

 

Full KNX systems, multiple gas boilers and heat pumps, with full commercial level changeover and redundancy, chillers and air handling units, sub-panel power distribution with local DB's each with power monitoring and control, fire, CCTV and alarm system of spec and quality I would expect in a high end office complex. Digital door locking and access control to external doors, the list goes on. 

[Carrerahill]

8 minutes ago, joth said:

I guess that's going in heavy on the "M" of M&E.

 

Throw in a moving floor swimming pool, automated glass walls, some cinema automation theatrics  and so on, it'll soon eat a 7 figure sum.

 

M is over the top yes - German indoor mounted ASHP's for example, two 50kW gas boilers. More pumps than a cruise ship.

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Full KNX systems, multiple gas boilers and heat pumps, with full commercial level changeover and redundancy, chillers and air handling units, sub-panel power distribution with local DB's each with power monitoring and control, fire, CCTV and alarm system of spec and quality I would expect in a high end office complex. Digital door locking and access control to external doors, the list goes on. 

These kind of planet killing (expletive deleted)ers should be charged £5/kWh, and £100/day meter rental.

Do they have a BEV 'because they are green'?

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

If your wife will tolerate putting the washing in the machine and then waiting some unknown time before the electricity is cheap enough to process it, she is more tolerant than mine. 

+1

 

[Carrerahill]

53 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

These kind of planet killing (expletive deleted)ers should be charged £5/kWh, and £100/day meter rental.

Do they have a BEV 'because they are green'?

He has no car.

 

 

[Radian]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Smart homes are great, until you misplace your phone. What happens when the provider stops updating the service, or removes the service.

 

You're absolutely right,  but I think phone thing is more about the faff of having to pull up the right app to do something trivial like turn on a light. Voice control is another story though. Ambient Computing has a great deal to offer but your second point about the reliability of the service provider is still valid here.

 

This is where I wish more people here (noted that some already do) would transfer their skills in housebuilding into learning to code inexpensive microcontrollers that can be made to do whatever they want. It's nowhere near as complicated as people might imagine (with plenty of online instruction available(. As an example, just about every single 'smart' product made in China is based on a common WiFi enabled microcontroller (ESP8266) and a collective of hobbyists have developed an alternative firmware that can be applied to gain fully independent control over the entire range of smart products. This releases them from any external dependencies - including having working internet access. The same kind of process applies to more expensive services like those offered for smart doorbells and security cameras. Not only do these tie you to the manufacturers whims regarding the service but they also come with monthly subscription fees for certain 'premium' facilities. For this kind of thing we can turn to Raspberry Pi Single Board Computers and the wealth of free software available to create identical functionality, under our complete control, for very little money.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Radian

[MikeSharp01]

3 minutes ago, Radian said:

This is where I wish more people here (noted that some already do) would transfer their skills in housebuilding into learning to code inexpensive microcontrollers that can be made to do whatever they want. It's nowhere near as complicated as people might imagine. As an example, just about every single 'smart' product made in China is based on a common WiFi enabled microcontroller (ESP8266) and a collective of hobbyists have developed an alternative firmware that can be applied to gain fully independent control over the entire range of smart products.

Some of us have / can but where does this leave the next occupier of the home, or your family if you are no longer about, for whatever reason (EG Divorce / death). It seems to me however that if you document your work carefully a competent person should be able to look after it / find someone who can - it is the way we are going although we will put conventional wiring in back to the control panel which a competent sparks could re-wire conventionally if needed. There may even be gold in them there Hills!

 

[Carrerahill]

4 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Some of us have / can but where does this leave the next occupier of the home, or your family if you are no longer about, for whatever reason (EG Divorce / death). It seems to me however that if you document your work carefully a competent person should be able to look after it / find someone who can - it is the way we are going although we will put conventional wiring in back to the control panel which a competent sparks could re-wire conventionally if needed. There may even be gold in them there Hills!

 

Mike, something I have been thinking about of late, we do intend to move on from our current house probably within 5-6 years. The issue is that as soon as I "disconnect" my devices from the house and cancel the broadband, effectively the house just becomes a building with hardware in it. I have moved broadband once since I moved into this house and when we changed router I just renamed the SSID so all the devices seamlessly transitioned over, I could always stick in a cheap £25 router with the same SSID and leave it as the smart home router with instruction on how to connect it all up.

 

One option was to make it a selling point, then leave really simply instruction as to how to adopt it, second was to put in a standalone controller of some sort or, keep quiet about it and remove all the hardware (I have wiring boxes setup that all I would have to do is remove devices and join light switches to the circuit rather than I/O terminals on controllers. 

 

The system would work standalone "dumb" but it means they would have basically lots of light switches switching relays rather than just having a light switch!

Edited January 13, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Radian]

23 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

but where does this leave the next occupier of the home, or your family if you are no longer about, for whatever reason (EG Divorce / death)

 

This is very true and something always at the forefront of my mind (having already had a close call with the latter, and the ever present potential of the former ?)

Fortunately much of the important stuff I'm talking about is plug 'n' play so can easily be swapped out for 'dumb' alternatives. Even my home-brew motorised CH valves are mounted on standard valve bodies that replacement actuators can be bolted to. The very fancy stuff tends to be more frivoulous (cameras, doorbells, WiFi Tea Machines...) so no great loss should it come to the worst.

 

But the gains are potentially enormous. When TCP Connected LED bulbs had their service cut off overnight thousands of 10W lamps eventually got dumped into various markets at a time when 10W LED lamps cost £20 or so. I picked some up for pennies and hacked them into my own system. Got over 30 now. Contrast my delight with the sorrow of those that got ripped-off by TCP (who still have the nerve to market stuff to this day).

Edited January 13, 2022 by Radian