First Self Build - Paragraph 79 Home in AONB

[Bitpipe]

I used Gaulhofer bought through @craig  - they did very neat integrated blinds (Roma) which sit in an invisible pocket built into the frame.

 

I just sent MBC planning drawings as architect was not adding value after planning - given each vendor has their own bespoke system, interested to know how the architect is doing construction drawings to cover all your options? 

[Thorfun]

13 hours ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

 

Have you got a photo of your external blinds? I think I might be getting external sliding blinds confused with what you're talking about as there's no way I could hide these external sliders in the fabric of the building (based on our design at least). If you look at the CGI above, they are the horizontal slatted units on the ground floor in front of the glazing. The proposed design was for them to be on rails to slide across the glazed areas to provide solar shading....I have a feeling you are talking about something different?

ours haven't been installed yet but we have made a pocket above the windows/sliders and they will fit recessed in there and the cladding will come down in front of them. should look very similar to @IanR's. We're getting Warema blinds

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, IanR said:

...

When raised, they are out of sight behind the cladding.

 

That , Ian, is too cool, too cool.

Apart from that you can even keep your 16tonne digger in a spare bedroom, it would seem. Hmmmm...  Too cool.

[Ferdinand]

On 17/01/2022 at 16:36, Mr Punter said:

Welcome

 

If the couple in the CGI are representative of you then well done!  Most of us are late middle age and many are coffin dodgers.

 

A great looking house.

Speak for yourself, grandad...

 

Well done on getting the project rolling.

 

Though not quite my style, I'm afraid. ?

 

IMO you really need to do more than a SAP for heat modelling. PHPP has been mentioned.

 

Also try this available via Buildhub. And remember that insulation etc is spend once save every day.

 

[thefoxesmaltings]

14 hours ago, IanR said:

 

Here's mine. Venetians from Hunter Douglas, automated so the slat angle changes with the sun's position, for max visibility while still stopping the solar gain.

 

When raised, they are out of sight behind the cladding.

 

 

Congrats on the planning. Looks a great project.

Those looks really smart Ian and very clever regarding the angle changing with the sun position. Did Hunter Douglas need to work with your glazing supplier or superstructure manufacturer, or were they fitted post build?

[thefoxesmaltings]

14 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

I used Gaulhofer bought through @craig  - they did very neat integrated blinds (Roma) which sit in an invisible pocket built into the frame.

 

I just sent MBC planning drawings as architect was not adding value after planning - given each vendor has their own bespoke system, interested to know how the architect is doing construction drawings to cover all your options? 

Our architect is really good to be fair. We also have planning conditions to discharge such as landscaping, materials etc.

 

The drawings submitted to planning dont have detailed measurements and naturally we need these for accurate quotations. That is what our architect is producing along with building regs, along with some internal changes.

 

Pretty much all of the TF companies we spoke to said that they could produce construction drawings via their own architects, however as you say these will be to their own bespoke system. We'd rather have the flexibility to put (fairly) generic steel and timber frame construction drawings out to tender to several companies to then identify/choose which system to go for.

[IanR]

44 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Those looks really smart Ian and very clever regarding the angle changing with the sun position. Did Hunter Douglas need to work with your glazing supplier or superstructure manufacturer, or were they fitted post build?

 

Thanks.

 

The slat angle automation is an out-of-the-box feature of the Loxone system I have used for my whole house automation. Hunter Douglas do offer a standalone automated control, but I can't remember if it goes any further than remote operation and pulling the blinds up if it gets too windy.

 

HD give out very precise detail of their head box sizes etc. There's no need for them to get involved with how their blinds are incorporated on a particular house, that's down to you or your house designer. There's also no direct integration with the widow package, so again, no involvement from the widow installer.

My install was helped by the planning restrictions that meant I had to fall in line with the position of the outside surfaces of the original shed I was converting. This naturally gave an overhang at the top of the windows, where there was originally profile cladding on the walls from the eaves, dropping down around 500mm and overlapping the original walls.

 

I replaced the original steel cladding and wall finishes with horizontal cladding above the window level, sitting proud of vertical cladding below that level. It allowed me to create a recess for the head boxes, without sculpting in to the wall structure. It can still be done without such an overhang, but needs a more detailed integration with the structure over window openings, to ensure you get enough insulation to avoid cold bridges.

 

The below is a vertical section, highlighting the void for the blind head box

 

 

And a horizontal section showing the relation to the window frames

 

 

There's no need to have such a big gap between the blind slats and the window. Mine is like this as I had the space due to the original building geometry, plus where I have blinds over a bi-fold, it leaves space for the handle.

 

Mine were fitted after the cladding was complete and windows in.

Edited January 21, 2022 by IanR

[Thorfun]

this is how ours have been designed to fit.

 

 

the timber frame company created the window openings wider and taller to accommodate the additional timber above and to the sides and I fitted that after the TF was erected and before the windows were installed.

 

[Bitpipe]

5 hours ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

The drawings submitted to planning dont have detailed measurements and naturally we need these for accurate quotations. That is what our architect is producing along with building regs, along with some internal changes.

 

Pretty much all of the TF companies we spoke to said that they could produce construction drawings via their own architects, however as you say these will be to their own bespoke system. We'd rather have the flexibility to put (fairly) generic steel and timber frame construction drawings out to tender to several companies to then identify/choose which system to go for.

 

Aside from accurate external dimensions, I really wouldn't spend too much on architect detailed drawings as the TF systems are so diverse they will just work to the building elevations and floor plans and devise their own structural system. They each will have different wall and floor profiles, steel requirements etc which will move things around internally.

 

They will use their own designers (not necessarily architects) plus pull in calcs from their SE.

 

We went through 4 revisions with MBC to adjust interior walls, window positions etc and these then became the reference drawings for everyone else, including building regs.

 

You may want to invest in a basic cad package to navigate any DWG you may be provided, I found it invaluable to check measurements, play around with things etc.

 

What we forgot to do (and just about got away with) was specify penetrations in steels to enable foul drainage and MVHR (general plumbing and electrical services can usually wriggle around through service voids).

 

Architect can still be very useful for details etc.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Bitpipe

[thefoxesmaltings]

22 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Aside from accurate external dimensions, I really wouldn't spend too much on architect detailed drawings as the TF systems are so diverse they will just work to the building elevations and floor plans and devise their own structural system. They each will have different wall and floor profiles, steel requirements etc which will move things around internally.

 

They will use their own designers (not necessarily architects) plus pull in calcs from their SE.

 

We went through 4 revisions with MBC to adjust interior walls, window positions etc and these then became the reference drawings for everyone else, including building regs.

 

You may want to invest in a basic cad package to navigate any DWG you may be provided, I found it invaluable to check measurements, play around with things etc.

 

What we forgot to do (and just about got away with) was specify penetrations in steels to enable foul drainage and MVHR (general plumbing and electrical services can usually wriggle around through service voids).

 

Architect can still be very useful for details etc.

 

 

Interesting you say that. I've had most of the TF companies say to me that they can quote from building elevations and floor plans, but it won't be a 'full quote' as they need technical drawings from that. (MBC included). They all offered their on house architects to do this at a price, but we didn't want to limit ourselves as you say to a specific structural system. It sounds as if what you went through with MBC (4 revisions etc) is what we've we'll be doing with our architect for a fixed price.  - Were you set on MBC from the beginning or did you look at other TF companies?

 

Useful point on the basic CAD package - any recomendations?

[thefoxesmaltings]

On 21/01/2022 at 11:43, IanR said:

 

Thanks.

 

The slat angle automation is an out-of-the-box feature of the Loxone system I have used for my whole house automation. Hunter Douglas do offer a standalone automated control, but I can't remember if it goes any further than remote operation and pulling the blinds up if it gets too windy.

 

HD give out very precise detail of their head box sizes etc. There's no need for them to get involved with how their blinds are incorporated on a particular house, that's down to you or your house designer. There's also no direct integration with the widow package, so again, no involvement from the widow installer.

My install was helped by the planning restrictions that meant I had to fall in line with the position of the outside surfaces of the original shed I was converting. This naturally gave an overhang at the top of the windows, where there was originally profile cladding on the walls from the eaves, dropping down around 500mm and overlapping the original walls.

 

I replaced the original steel cladding and wall finishes with horizontal cladding above the window level, sitting proud of vertical cladding below that level. It allowed me to create a recess for the head boxes, without sculpting in to the wall structure. It can still be done without such an overhang, but needs a more detailed integration with the structure over window openings, to ensure you get enough insulation to avoid cold bridges.

 

The below is a vertical section, highlighting the void for the blind head box

 

 

And a horizontal section showing the relation to the window frames

 

 

There's no need to have such a big gap between the blind slats and the window. Mine is like this as I had the space due to the original building geometry, plus where I have blinds over a bi-fold, it leaves space for the handle.

 

Mine were fitted after the cladding was complete and windows in.

This is really helpful Ian, thank you.

 

Am I understanding the drawings correctly that the blinds are external to the building fabric? Just wondering if you've had any issues with wind causing them to knock against the windows...

[thefoxesmaltings]

On 21/01/2022 at 11:47, Thorfun said:

this is how ours have been designed to fit.

 

 

the timber frame company created the window openings wider and taller to accommodate the additional timber above and to the sides and I fitted that after the TF was erected and before the windows were installed.

 

Really helpful Thorfun, appreciate you sharing this drawing. Any issues with the blinds knocking against the windows and causing noise when it's windy outside?

[Thorfun]

35 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Any issues with the blinds knocking against the windows and causing noise when it's windy outside?

I'll let you know when they're installed. ?

 

but they're on vertical rails so I don't expect there to be any issues

 

https://www.warema.com/en/venetian-blinds/basic-external-venetian-blinds.html

[IanR]

9 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Am I understanding the drawings correctly that the blinds are external to the building fabric? Just wondering if you've had any issues with wind causing them to knock against the windows...

 

My installation is external to the wall structure, but within the timber cladding. You can see on Thorfun's install, it's sculpted in to the structure, and more efficient for overall wall width, but requires more of a local compromise on insulation thickness.

 

The cladding details in my previous message were an early study before actual cladding sizes and windows were agreed. The final install did a better job of integrating the side channels and getting a bit more insulation against the frame, behind the cladding.

 

 

I've never had any issues with the blinds touching the windows. They do get raised if there's a "blust" of wind over 36mph, and up to that speed they're surprisingly robust, even on the 5m spans on some of my larger windows.

You can have versions that run on tensioned wires, that span top to bottom, and you can align these to the vertical mullions on the window, but I wanted as little of the blinds noticeable when raised as possible.

[ToughButterCup]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  dat's reeely coool man, cooool.

We have internal blinds throughout. And our tomcat has taken to drawing attention to his many needs by twanging a few blades and waiting for the irritated attention the behaviour  attracts. At 3am. he's ...... 

 

A set of blinds outside would mean a has-been-tomcat for us, I think.

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Really helpful Thorfun, appreciate you sharing this drawing. Any issues with the blinds knocking against the windows and causing noise when it's windy outside?

 

We used roughly the same detail.  The timber frame company then supplied the frame with the recess made to measure.  We actually made the recess slightly deeper and had the Roma blinds supplied with pre-fitted insulation on the rear of the blinds boxes (to make up for the loss of insulation in the window head).  With the insulation in place the blinds are sat slightly further off the font of the windows, not that they would ever touch the window anyway.

 

Our (Roma) blinds came pre-attached to the windows which made things so much easier and ensured that the blind head and length and everything was all supplied to work together ouf of the box.  We also used a type of slat called CDL which i) is more stable in the wind ii) does a fairly good job of blacking out internally which is good for bedrooms.

 

I found Roma fantastic:
- They have a very comprehensive Kompendium with all technical details, max wind loads and options all explained in detail.

- They have ton of options to customize things

- They have an online CAD tool to design blinds, visualize in 3D, and then download in AutoCAD format to incorporate in your drawings.

 

Only caveat with Roma is that they don't supply direct to U.K. I don't thnk.  Ours were supplied with Gaulhoffer windows, after @Bitpipe did a stellar job of recommeding and demoing them to us ?

Edited January 22, 2022 by Dan F

[Bitpipe]

6 hours ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Interesting you say that. I've had most of the TF companies say to me that they can quote from building elevations and floor plans, but it won't be a 'full quote' as they need technical drawings from that. (MBC included). They all offered their on house architects to do this at a price, but we didn't want to limit ourselves as you say to a specific structural system. It sounds as if what you went through with MBC (4 revisions etc) is what we've we'll be doing with our architect for a fixed price.  - Were you set on MBC from the beginning or did you look at other TF companies?

 

Useful point on the basic CAD package - any recomendations?

 

Maybe things have changed since 2015. 

All the TF firms I contacted gave me a quote against the planning drawings, when I decided to process with MBC the detailed design only happened when I paid the deposit.

 

I chose them as the package was very complete (as a novice i wanted to minimise contractors) and I was able to view a few of their builds. Also they were ahead of the others wrt passive performance back then. Was very happy with their work. We didn’t need their passive slab as we had a basement but others chose them for this reason also.

 

I still struggle to see how an architect can draw up detailed tf designs when the vendor systems vary so much, unless you’re allowing for a degree of re-design by the supplier.

 

Even MBC have different systems on offer - I have the passive standard twin wall blown cellulose option but there are single wall fixed insulation options with lower thermal performance etc.  

[thefoxesmaltings]

16 hours ago, IanR said:

 

My installation is external to the wall structure, but within the timber cladding. You can see on Thorfun's install, it's sculpted in to the structure, and more efficient for overall wall width, but requires more of a local compromise on insulation thickness.

 

The cladding details in my previous message were an early study before actual cladding sizes and windows were agreed. The final install did a better job of integrating the side channels and getting a bit more insulation against the frame, behind the cladding.

 

 

I've never had any issues with the blinds touching the windows. They do get raised if there's a "blust" of wind over 36mph, and up to that speed they're surprisingly robust, even on the 5m spans on some of my larger windows.

You can have versions that run on tensioned wires, that span top to bottom, and you can align these to the vertical mullions on the window, but I wanted as little of the blinds noticeable when raised as possible.

Really helpful and good to know about the robustness of the blinds. Will check out Hunter Douglas and I'll certainly have a discussion and run this past our architect. Thank you for the additional photos.

[thefoxesmaltings]

16 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

We used roughly the same detail.  The timber frame company then supplied the frame with the recess made to measure.  We actually made the recess slightly deeper and had the Roma blinds supplied with pre-fitted insulation on the rear of the blinds boxes (to make up for the loss of insulation in the window head).  With the insulation in place the blinds are sat slightly further off the font of the windows, not that they would ever touch the window anyway.

 

Our (Roma) blinds came pre-attached to the windows which made things so much easier and ensured that the blind head and length and everything was all supplied to work together ouf of the box.  We also used a type of slat called CDL which i) is more stable in the wind ii) does a fairly good job of blacking out internally which is good for bedrooms.

 

I found Roma fantastic:
- They have a very comprehensive Kompendium with all technical details, max wind loads and options all explained in detail.

- They have ton of options to customize things

- They have an online CAD tool to design blinds, visualize in 3D, and then download in AutoCAD format to incorporate in your drawings.

 

Only caveat with Roma is that they don't supply direct to U.K. I don't thnk.  Ours were supplied with Gaulhoffer windows, after @Bitpipe did a stellar job of recommeding and demoing them to us ?

Thanks for the detailed info Dan, will take a look at Roma/Gaulhoffer to see if they can put a package together for us. One less contracter to deal with if it can be done all-in-one.

[thefoxesmaltings]

11 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Maybe things have changed since 2015. 

All the TF firms I contacted gave me a quote against the planning drawings, when I decided to process with MBC the detailed design only happened when I paid the deposit.

 

I chose them as the package was very complete (as a novice i wanted to minimise contractors) and I was able to view a few of their builds. Also they were ahead of the others wrt passive performance back then. Was very happy with their work. We didn’t need their passive slab as we had a basement but others chose them for this reason also.

 

I still struggle to see how an architect can draw up detailed tf designs when the vendor systems vary so much, unless you’re allowing for a degree of re-design by the supplier.

 

Even MBC have different systems on offer - I have the passive standard twin wall blown cellulose option but there are single wall fixed insulation options with lower thermal performance etc.  

Yes, exactly. We're allowing for a degree of re-design which will be given for each supplier. But this re-design will only take place once we're absolutely set on a given TF company. This decision will be based on a firm quote from the technical drawings provided to them by our architect.  We fully expect them to then translate this into their 'system'. 

 

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Thanks for the detailed info Dan, will take a look at Roma/Gaulhoffer to see if they can put a package together for us. One less contracter to deal with if it can be done all-in-one.

are you starting to get a feel for what's required for self-building and project managing? you pretty much need to have decided windows, blinds, cladding, insulation levels (determines wall thickness), ventilation system (in case MVHR ducting needs to pass through steels or glulams) and I'm sure there are more BEFORE your architect draws up the plans!! each blind manufacturer may have a slightly different requirement for their cassettes which will need to be factored in to the architects drawings and if you're going for an all-in-one solution with blinds and windows then you need to have decided on the window manufacturer as well. (one area that takes a lot of research and time to get quotes as there are a lot out there and, according to posts on here, prices vary for the same manufacturer depending on the job). 

 

everything is affected by everything else and it's only later down the line do you realise how much a decision has a knock-on effect on other parts. eg. we wanted external blinds and chose the Warema ones. They required at least 80mm from the external side of the timber frame to sit in to and so we had to have 2 x 47mm x 47mm timber battens for our vertical timber cladding. this added a lot of cost to the battening as we went for a standard 140mm TF. if we'd gone for the 300mm twin-wall TF I presume we wouldn't have needed such big battens, or even a 190mm TF walls then it would be the same. so the one decision to have external blinds added more that we thought at the time. not that we regret the decision it's just one of those things I've learnt as we progress through our self-build journey! each decision has many unforeseen effects.

 

don't let me put you off though, it is a lot of fun and we're enjoying the experience a lot.

[Bitpipe]

9 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Yes, exactly. We're allowing for a degree of re-design which will be given for each supplier. But this re-design will only take place once we're absolutely set on a given TF company. This decision will be based on a firm quote from the technical drawings provided to them by our architect.  We fully expect them to then translate this into their 'system'. 

 

 

Makes sense now.

 

I'd get the architect to focus on how services interact with the generic structural elements of a timber frame (spans of steel in your floor structure, load bearing elements in wall etc) 

 

Not a full M&E design but thinking about penetrations in steels or similar for large items like fouls and MVHR ducts. We did not do this and had a few close squeaks to get everything in.

 

Doors / windows / thresholds etc will also be outside the remit of the frame company as will your external cladding system. I know @Weebles had to redesign a window as it would have interrupted a vertical load bearing element. We had to figure out some threshold details for sliders to have a step free transition.

 

MBC throw a bit of a curveball with their passive slab which is quite different to a traditional foundation system, however all foundation designs should be based on some degree of ground investigation to understand what you're building on.

 

 

[thefoxesmaltings]

On 23/01/2022 at 10:36, Bitpipe said:

 

Makes sense now.

 

I'd get the architect to focus on how services interact with the generic structural elements of a timber frame (spans of steel in your floor structure, load bearing elements in wall etc) 

 

Not a full M&E design but thinking about penetrations in steels or similar for large items like fouls and MVHR ducts. We did not do this and had a few close squeaks to get everything in.

 

Doors / windows / thresholds etc will also be outside the remit of the frame company as will your external cladding system. I know @Weebles had to redesign a window as it would have interrupted a vertical load bearing element. We had to figure out some threshold details for sliders to have a step free transition.

 

MBC throw a bit of a curveball with their passive slab which is quite different to a traditional foundation system, however all foundation designs should be based on some degree of ground investigation to understand what you're building on.

 

 

Thanks. Will raise the point with our architect on what you mention with the generic structural elements, but I'm sure he's aware of it.

 

Yes we have ground investigations already complete and a foundation system designed by the ground surveyor. Our architect has this information and we will also provide it to the TF companies as I expect they will specify the foundation design specifics? In any case it's looking to be a standard depth trenchfill with clayboard for heave support as the ground condition is firm clay.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

foundation system designed by the ground surveyor

is a ground surveyor qualified to design a foundation system? I thought that was the remit of a structural engineer? I'd be questioning this foundation system and ensuring a structural engineer takes a look! Building control will need to see the structural calculations for the foundations as well, at least mine did.

[Bitpipe]

35 minutes ago, thefoxesmaltings said:

Thanks. Will raise the point with our architect on what you mention with the generic structural elements, but I'm sure he's aware of it.

 

Yes we have ground investigations already complete and a foundation system designed by the ground surveyor. Our architect has this information and we will also provide it to the TF companies as I expect they will specify the foundation design specifics? In any case it's looking to be a standard depth trenchfill with clayboard for heave support as the ground condition is firm clay.

 

OK, be aware that the foundation system may vary between TF systems, MBC would use a passive raft not a traditional trench system.