Loft Storage

[Onoff]

2 up, 2 down 1860s terrace. I want to reinsulate the loft and put some boards down for storage. I've had a measure up and will do a drawing shortly with beam sizes etc.

 

Would have originally been a slate roof. This has been changed to concrete tiles. Celcon walls have been built to segregate the space from what would once have been a continuous loft space above all the properties. 

 

Purlins have been added above 175x50 binders that sit in joist hangers. 

 

Distance between walls is 3100mm.

 

Biggest issue I see is the ceiling joists are only 75x50 nom. 

 

Existing insulation is a bit old and scrappy. All needs bagging up and binning!

 

A few pics to start with:

 

Purlin support one end and in the middle.

 

 

Thinking  purlin supports are missing this end?

 

 

The purlin supports come down over one dividing wall atop the 4" wall plate:

 

 

 

Binders in joist hangers sat in the chimney stacks.

 

 

 

Crap shot of the peak:

 

 

Immediate thought is to run some more 175x50 joists perpendicular to the ceiling joists. How to support each end though? Resin fix a timber into the Celcon walls and joist hangers off of that? 

 

That would give nom 250 deep for a good chunk of insulation. Boarded area to be kept within the binders. 

 

250-270mm insulation depth everywhere else.

 

As I say, storage only, not living space!

 

Any thoughts appreciated! 

 

Cheers

Edited December 15, 2021 by Onoff

[Pocster]

22 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Any thoughts appreciated! 

Yes ! Can you finish the other jobs please ? ( your SWMBO asked me to say that ) 

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, pocster said:

Yes ! Can you finish the other jobs please ? ( your SWMBO asked me to say that ) 

 

F*** that I've got a local to frequent now. For a couple of hours I can forget all about the long list of unfinished jobs. 

 

Btw, I owe you, if she's talking to you it means she's not talking to me! 

[Faz]

'Existing insulation is a bit old and scappy' - it looks like they used cow dung mate!  You don't want to be doing more joists - why?  And how would you get them up there?  You want a 225mm batten over the existing truss bases to give your storage area and then run 100mm insulation between the trusses and 200mm quilt across it perpendicular - I used a company called Kershaw (I think) who were very cheap supply & fit.

[Faz]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

F*** that I've got a local to frequent now. For a couple of hours I can forget all about the long list of unfinished jobs. 

 

Btw, I owe you, if she's talking to you it means she's not talking to me! 

The low mileage cheap runner is still available mate - surprised no-one has snapped it up!  By the looks of it I am not interested in a PX btw....

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, Faz said:

The low mileage cheap runner is still available mate - surprised no-one has snapped it up!  By the looks of it I am not interested in a PX btw....

 

Paintwork seriously faded here, various age related issues. Almost impossible to start at any time of the day, underside has seen better days etc. Tried different lubricants but a lost cause I think. ECU very erratic of late. 

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, Faz said:

'Existing insulation is a bit old and scappy' - it looks like they used cow dung mate!  You don't want to be doing more joists - why?  And how would you get them up there?  You want a 225mm batten over the existing truss bases to give your storage area and then run 100mm insulation between the trusses and 200mm quilt across it perpendicular - I used a company called Kershaw (I think) who were very cheap supply & fit.

 

You mean sit a 225mm timber atop and parallel with the existing 75mm high roof ceiling joist / "truss base"?

Edited December 15, 2021 by Onoff

[Faz]

No - in line with it for your storage area only just so the flooring doesn't compress the insulation.  You want to lay 100mm quilt between the trusses then run 200mm perpendicular across it.  You will have to piece it in for your storage bit.

 

When you remove that existing muck I would be a little wary as well - properly mask up with something decent - FFP3 I would suggest.  Don't like the look of it tbh.

[Gus Potter]

Hi Onoff.

 

Will this work as a concept in terms of space and fit up.

 

You have a purlin, binder below with a couple of soldier studs. Introduce a couple of diagonal braces from the purlin ends down to the middle soldier at binder level. Plate up the joints each side with marine ply screwed and glued with say Cascamite structural glue. Now you have created a girder truss. Put in a ridge beam to prevent the ridge from dropping and causing potential roof spread. Now you can remove the internal diagonals.

 

You can beef up the floor with steel box section underslung from the binder if need be.

 

Where the girder meets the stack you can support the ends of the girders by fabricating an upside down triangle. At the top weld on ledger pieces that recess into the brick at the sides of the chimney. For good measure fix the ends of the girder and steel triangle so it can't move away from the brick or sideways. Deploy similar tactics at the other end by creating a shoe with a ledger turned into the blockwork.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

41 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Hi Onoff.

 

Will this work as a concept in terms of space and fit up.

 

You have a purlin, binder below with a couple of soldier studs. Introduce a couple of diagonal braces from the purlin ends down to the middle soldier at binder level. Plate up the joints each side with marine ply screwed and glued with say Cascamite structural glue. Now you have created a girder truss. Put in a ridge beam to prevent the ridge from dropping and causing potential roof spread. Now you can remove the internal diagonals.

 

You can beef up the floor with steel box section underslung from the binder if need be.

 

Where the girder meets the stack you can support the ends of the girders by fabricating an upside down triangle. At the top weld on ledger pieces that recess into the brick at the sides of the chimney. For good measure fix the ends of the girder and steel triangle so it can't move away from the brick or sideways. Deploy similar tactics at the other end by creating a shoe with a ledger turned into the blockwork.

 

Cheers. Going to have to get my head around that but thanks! ?

 

I really, really don't want to be welding up there at all. It is tinder dry. Ideally all timber but if any steel then bolted connections. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Onoff

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

No - in line with it for your storage area only just so the flooring doesn't compress the insulation.  You want to lay 100mm quilt between the trusses then run 200mm perpendicular across it.  You will have to piece it in for your storage bit.

 

When you remove that existing muck I would be a little wary as well - properly mask up with something decent - FFP3 I would suggest.  Don't like the look of it tbh.

 

The dirt and dust from the clean up is really my biggest concern. Mainly for the crap permeating into the house below even if the loft hatch is down.

 

I was half thinking to even put a roof light in to vent the dust out of and roll the bin bags down the roof into the garden.

[Gus Potter]

9 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Cheers. Going to have to get my head around that but thanks! ?

 

I really, really don't want to be welding up there at all. It is tinder dry. Ideally all timber but if any steel then bolted connections. 

Onoff. The steel fabrication is done outside. All you are doing is making up some bespoke truss shoes out of 10 / 12mm flat bar.. well within your skill set.

 

 

[PeterW]

Is this a rental ..?

If so, board an area about 6ft square around the hatch, strengthen with 6x2 if needed and just overlay the rest with 200mm loft roll both ways. 
 

Then tell the tenants there is no storage other than the small boarded area and leave it or even put a lock on the hatch. They have a habit of leaving yoh all their junk otherwise !

[Pocster]

7 hours ago, PeterW said:

Then tell the tenants there is no storage other than the small boarded area and leave it or even put a lock on the hatch

This is important. I had tenants once fill the loft with crap and put a duvet over the electrics …. Needless to say we almost had a fire ……

[joe90]

In our rental I filled the loft with insulation and screwed the loft hatch down and on the rental details specified no access/storage in the loft! Simples.

[ProDave]

I would leave the existing poor insulation in place.  It would be a mare of a job to remove and dispose of.  So just leave it and add more on top.

 

As above, I would just provide the minimum walkway to get to any water tanks or anything else that needs access.  I have seen plenty of rentals stuffed with junk so would agree with locked loft hatch and "no storage"  

[Onoff]

No offence I know what other people do in rentals and why. There are particular reasons I want to do what I've said about. I've had sh!t tenants before (& I mean really bad). These aren't but could do with some extra storage space for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into. I'd rather do that than lose them. 

 

I always have the option later to lock it off. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Onoff

[joe90]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

would leave the existing poor insulation in place.  It would be a mare of a job to remove and dispose of.  So just leave it and add more on top.

 +1, I would use 6 x 2 in joist hangers between those two new timbers, another 4x2 on top of ceiling  joists on top of dividing wall to support the other 6x2,s which only need to be half the distance.

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 +1, I would use 6 x 2 in joist hangers between those two new timbers, another 4x2 on top of ceiling  joists on top of dividing wall to support the other 6x2,s which only need to be half the distance.

 

Do us a drawing will ya? ?

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

Do us a drawing will ya? ?

CAD (crayon assisted drawing ?‍♂️) if you make the distance from top of ceiling joists to top of new 6x2 the thickness of the additional insulation no wasted space. New 6x2 overlap in the middle so no very long timbers to try to get in the loft.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by joe90

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, Onoff said:

These aren't but could do with some extra storage space for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into. I'd rather do that than lose them. 

Cannabis Farm?

[Onoff]

35 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Cannabis Farm?

 

You wish! 

[Faz]

A proper pita for a little bit of storage. You could always not bother with the insulation in that bit and just board it?

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

You wish! 

We get boat loads of better stuff coming into Newlyn every night.

[Faz]

Party at Steamy Tea's house it is then! ?