SteamyTea Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Ronan Point disaster was caused by a very small gas leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: Or an idiot. Anyone who signs off a gas pipe, that they have not witnessed the integrity of for every inch of the pipe, is a danger to themselves and others. It would be different if it was a friend or fellow plumber who's work was known to them, but for a one-off for a self-builder it is just lunacy. The sleeve through the wall should be copper, or a rigid PVC and NOT flexible electrical conduit ( as it is weak as a kitten and very easy to puncture. The sleeve should be sealed into the wall at each end, and then the pipe passed through the sleeve. The pipe should then be sealed with a sealant on the internal side only, so if the pipe ever failed the build-up of gas could only ever discharge to outside, not fill the house. That's the minimum standard I observe when passing a gas pipe through a cavity wall. As for compression joints, there should be ZERO compression joints other than at the source and at the appliance. Surface mounted anywhere else is a huge bodge and would never get past me. Compression anywhere on continuous gas runs = NO, simply do NOT use them, there is no need. If this is to save money to DIY, go save money somewhere else, this is just a daft idea. Read the post properly before you comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 44 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: I 100% stand by my previous; that anyone signing off a gas install they've not witnessed being put in, or they didn't just come and pull in themselves, is a danger. You just don't play with gas, end of. Noted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 hour ago, dpmiller said: but is it legal or not? Nobody suggested surface mounted. I really wish people would stop scanning posts and replying in platitudes, it doesn't help anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 @Coops, I would ask the guy who is willing to sign off your work to specify exactly what he would accept, that way you won’t have any surprises (but still test or even switch off at the bottles everytime you use it till he can get there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 16 minutes ago, joe90 said: @Coops, I would ask the guy who is willing to sign off your work to specify exactly what he would accept, that way you won’t have any surprises (but still test or even switch off at the bottles everytime you use it till he can get there). Thanks Joe, to be fair, I think he's OK with compression or solder as long as he can get to the joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 33 minutes ago, Coops said: Read the post properly before you comment! I did........ Every letter. It stinks. DIY of a gas pipe, and then use of it until someone becomes available to tell you if its lethal or not is 1000% unacceptable practice unless you live alone and have the only key to the premises. Interpret how you like. You cannot do this, end of. 31 minutes ago, Coops said: Noted Your OP is worryingly indicative of someone who intends to proceed with illegal / lethal works, and are asking how to go about it. Even more worrying is a GSR fitter condoning and playing along. I wonder where he would be if the HSE were on site after and incident? A million miles away would be my guess....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) On 22/11/2021 at 08:58, Coops said: My query really centres around what is considered as 'concealed' when using compression fitting, does this simply mean hidden within the fabric of the building under floor boards or stud walls (i.e risk of gas building up in cavity) or does the term 'concealed' also include a run of pipework behind a base unit at plinth level? Edited November 23, 2021 by Nickfromwales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 31 minutes ago, Coops said: Nobody suggested surface mounted. I really wish people would stop scanning posts and replying in platitudes, it doesn't help anyone. Under a run of base units would be what now? "Surface mounted" that's what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Under a run of base units would be what now? "Surface mounted" that's what. Surface mounted means... Well, mounted on the surface. maybe its different in Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: I did........ Every letter. It stinks. DIY of a gas pipe, and then use of it until someone becomes available to tell you if its lethal or not is 1000% unacceptable practice unless you live alone and have the only key to the premises. Interpret how you like. You cannot do this, end of. Your OP is worryingly indicative of someone who intends to proceed with illegal / lethal works, and are asking how to go about it. Even more worrying is a GSR fitter condoning and playing along. I wonder where he would be if the HSE were on site after and incident? A million miles away would be my guess....... I was running a large commercial refurb project years ago in Chiswick when I did have a spot check from HSE, the guy was very nice, after a lovely walk round it was noted the decorating contractors spraying the concrete soffits had the wrong type of mask laying about, that was the only thing he picked up on... Anyway I very much doubt the HSE would be interested in visiting my little old house given I don't employ anyone and I'm not employed by anyone but I'll bear it in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Coops said: Nobody suggested surface mounted. I really wish people would stop scanning posts and replying in platitudes, it doesn't help anyone. No platitudes here, I was actually trying to tie @Nickfromwales down on whether something was fact or opinion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 5 hours ago, dpmiller said: No platitudes here, I was actually trying to tie @Nickfromwales down on whether something was fact or opinion... I know DPMiller, I wasn't aiming at you, actually it was directed at those who seem to want to catastrophise and pontificate, seemingly without pausing to actually understand what the OP may be asking. I made it quite clear my post was not directed at angry, opinionated gas fitter types it was just a request for some positive advice, as most have given in good faith. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 I was referring to the HSE arriving AFTER there has been an incident. 15 hours ago, Coops said: it was directed at those who seem to want to catastrophise and pontificate, ….or advise, offer reason why, and also give further advice on how to execute such work to make the best of a bad practice in light of “Although one chap did agree to certify my installation in the new year if I went ahead and installed” ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coops Posted November 24, 2021 Author Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: I was referring to the HSE arriving AFTER there has been an incident. ….or advise, offer reason why, and also give further advice on how to execute such work to make the best of a bad practice in light of “Although one chap did agree to certify my installation in the new year if I went ahead and installed” ? The scope of the HSE is purely to investigate employers who fall short in their duty of care to employees, visitors or members of the public directly connected with the job site. I could blow my house into the middle of next year (although not likely with a 47kg propane bottle?) The people with any interest would be the fire service, police and insurance loss adjuster. Surely you remember learning about the role of the HSE and Riddor when you completed your SMSTS? Edited November 24, 2021 by Coops Grammatical error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Coops said: The scope of the HSE is purely to investigate employers who fall short in their duty of care to employees, visitors or members of the public directly connected with the job site. I could blow my house into the middle of next year (although not likely with a 47kg propane bottle?) The people with any interest would be the fire service, police and insurance loss adjuster. Surely you remember learning about the role of the HSE and Riddor when you completed your SMSTS? I’m sure the SMSTS, would have said that that only competent persons, suitably trained should be carrying out appropriate tasks… gas fitting being a good example… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfb Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) On 23/11/2021 at 08:02, Nickfromwales said: As for compression joints, there should be ZERO compression joints other than at the source and at the appliance. Surface mounted anywhere else is a huge bodge and would never get past me. Compression anywhere on continuous gas runs = NO, simply do NOT use them, there is no need. If this is to save money to DIY, go save money somewhere else, this is just a daft idea. My understanding is that you should never use soldered joints and should ONLY use compression for Lpg. I’m not a plumber so don’t take my word for it. My plumber didn’t know. correct me if I am wrong. if I’m right though it does beg the question of whether OPs plumber he is looking to sign off is competent. Is he Lpg registered? Edited November 24, 2021 by jfb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 1 minute ago, jfb said: My understanding is that you should never use soldered joints and should ONLY use compression for Lpg. I’m not a plumber so don’t take my word for it. My plumber didn’t know. correct me if I am wrong. Every install I've ever done, ( immediately supervised and signed off by the GSR fitter I used to work with ) has had soldered joints. Oil is different, compression or leaded solder IIRC. Apparently the issue was with the more brittle / different composition with the unleaded solder, but I could be wrong about that ( been a while since I worked on an OFTEC registered job and legislation changes may overrule me on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 My father was a gas plumber and over 30 years ago now he did the LPG install at my first house, and that was all compression fittings, he said then something about solder not being allowed on LPG. I think that might have been the case previously, but later we had a new kitchen and a different gas plumber came to connect the new hob and did a lot of sucking through his teeth when he saw the compression fittings, but after drop testing it was okay to sign it off. New house has one soldered joint at the hob and one compression joint at the changeover regulator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 18 hours ago, Coops said: The scope of the HSE is purely to investigate employers who fall short in their duty of care to employees, visitors or members of the public directly connected with the job site. I could blow my house into the middle of next year (although not likely with a 47kg propane bottle?) The people with any interest would be the fire service, police and insurance loss adjuster. Surely you remember learning about the role of the HSE and Riddor when you completed your SMSTS? Sometimes, I wonder why I bother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Chin up! remember you can’t win a discussion with a daftie, they have years of experience…. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Just for my own interest I looked this up and found that the consensus reply from many sources was that solder joins are not allowed on gas pipework indoors as the solder could melt in a fire and cause the joint to leak into an existing fire, similar to not allowing yellow plastic gas pipe indoors that could melt in a fire. Despite what regulation is cited, this makes sense ?. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 20 minutes ago, joe90 said: Just for my own interest I looked this up and found that the consensus reply from many sources was that solder joins are not allowed on gas pipework indoors as the solder could melt in a fire and cause the joint to leak into an existing fire, similar to not allowing yellow plastic gas pipe indoors that could melt in a fire. Despite what regulation is cited, this makes sense ?. Every gas fitter I’ve worked alongside for nearly 30 years, including multiples of domestic and commercial installers, would all disagree. The likelihood of a fire, vs the robustness of soldered on gas is not a valid debate not walk away from soldered joints, afaic, but also, good luck to running a gas pipe right through a residential dwelling without having exposed compression joints.?. Every single fitter I’ve worked with has instructed me, implicitly, to seek out and cut out any such compression joints and replace with new soldered sections. No, no, and thrice……no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 but what is the *rule*? There's lots of opinion but nothing definite... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 21 minutes ago, dpmiller said: but what is the *rule*? There's lots of opinion but nothing definite... That’s what I was trying to find in a quick search on the tinternet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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