Wetroom Formers and Wastes

[Barney12]

I've just started looking at these. There is a huge range of options and prices. I've seen Impey mentioned here before but are they really worth the almost double price tag? 

I could see more need for quality/rigidity on a timber floor but on to concrete it's not got to do much? 

The last two wet rooms I did I made my own formers but frankly I don't have the time. 

[Nickfromwales]

Wedi tend to be much thicker, so aren't even a contender for houses with posi / engineered beams. Impey are typically only 22mm so are far more favourable, but yes, not cheap. 

Diamond seem very good value for money, and I've fitted one and can report that they're nice bits of kit. Choose a better waste than the standard one though as its a little commercial looking IMO. Note the offset waste position which allows you to rotate the tray through 180o and that's usually enough to miss any joists. 

[Barney12]

Thanks for that. I'll take a look.

[ProDave]

I was going to start a topic, but i'll share this one.

 

Recommend me a 1200 by 900 former, 22mm thick (to match to 22mm floor boards)  Waste must be offset from centre otherwise it will land on a joist.

 

It's to fit over posi joists on 600mm centres.  Can it span the joists (i.e is it structural like a floor board) or do I have to contrive additional support underneath?

[PeterW]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I was going to start a topic, but i'll share this one.

 

Recommend me a 1200 by 900 former, 22mm thick (to match to 22mm floor boards)  Waste must be offset from centre otherwise it will land on a joist.

 

It's to fit over posi joists on 600mm centres.  Can it span the joists (i.e is it structural like a floor board) or do I have to contrive additional support underneath?

 

I'll start ...

 

Marmox ShowerStone

[ProDave]

Good start Peter, but I need 1200 (not 1300 or 1400) by 900  At 1400 it would be out of the room!!!

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Good start Peter, but I need 1200 (not 1300 or 1400) by 900  At 1400 it would be out of the room!!!

 

Doh sorry just seen that ..!!

 

Try this one - use Z clips to support the OSB or ply between the joists 

 

Marmox Showerlay

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

Doh sorry just seen that ..!!

 

Try this one - use Z clips to support the OSB or ply between the joists 

 

Marmox Showerlay

That will do it. Now all I want it a technical drawing of it showing the EXACT position of the drain. Why is such basic information so hard to find, surely that is something everyone will want before ordering one?

 

What does one then use for the boards for the rest of the wet room? 22mm green "waterproof" chipboard?  Surely the whole lot is going to be coated or painted in something to make it 100% waterproof before tiling?

[Barney12]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

That will do it. Now all I want it a technical drawing of it showing the EXACT position of the drain. Why is such basic information so hard to find, surely that is something everyone will want before ordering one?

 

 

From here: http://www.marmox.co.uk/products/showerlay

[ProDave]

Thanks Barney. The waste in that 900 by 1200 is offset enough to miss my joist.

[PeterW]

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

What does one then use for the boards for the rest of the wet room? 22mm green "waterproof" chipboard?  Surely the whole lot is going to be coated or painted in something to make it 100% waterproof before tiling?

 

I'm using Egger P5 with the joints done with CT1 between the tray and the floor and I'm going to tank the @r$e out of it with this.... 

 

Tanking Kit

[Nickfromwales]

Link is duff for me. 

Think peter was on about this brand. Tried and tested so happy days afaic. . 

 

[Nickfromwales]

15 hours ago, ProDave said:

It's to fit over posi joists on 600mm centres.  Can it span the joists (i.e is it structural like a floor board) or do I have to contrive additional support underneath?

 

You need to have a catcher timber where the former ends, see the 3x2 that the former edge is screwed to above.

I ran the perpendicular timbers slung under the heads of the pozi joists to create a cradle, then laid and packed out the 3x2's in line with the pozi joists to create catchers for the former and the weyroc that had to finish abutted to it. 

Iirc there were around 15 lengths of 3x2 in that arrangement. I'll dig some more pics out off the iPad when I get 5. 

[JanetE]

@Nickfromwales  notice you have the former the same height as the floor boards. Surely you need to reinforce the floor with some kind of marine ply or cement board if you are going to tile on top of it all???

 

Out of interest our formers are AK Wetrooms. V reasonable on fleabay.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JanetE

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, JanetE said:

@Nickfromwales  notice you have the former the same height as the floor boards. Surely you need to reinforce the floor with some kind of marine ply or cement board if you are going to tile on top of it all???

 

Out of interest our formers are AK Wetrooms. V reasonable on fleabay.

 

He's going to come along and say nope, super strong, 22mm thick former (with built-in falls), 22mm boards.

[Bitpipe]

Might be the angle but the former looks to be just proud of the floor. When we did ours, we worked out that after 6mm backer boards, electric UFH and latex, the Impey former needed to be 12mm proud of the floor. We had the joiner cut a support out of 12mm marine ply and screwed and glued (Sikaflex) that over the pozi joists with additional support all round. Tray similarly screwed and glued to the former, with a few bags of plaster sitting on it while it cured.

 

Then, after the tiler laid the 6mm backer to the rest of the room and UFH and latex, the membrane went down on the floor and up the wall edges, I also tanked the shower area (with corner tape) before tiling.

 

Now about 9 months later, I have a few hairline cracks in the grout on the tiling in the shower, presumably due to movement, but not that worried as I know it's bombproof underneath.

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

Weyroc was ply'd with 12mm and then Amtico'd. 

As I didn't know at the time that the ply was so thick I set that tray straight on the pozi's. 

On 02/05/2017 at 08:31, Bitpipe said:

Might be the angle but the former looks to be just proud of the floor.

 

Yup. Iirc the Impey tray is 22mm but when you bed it down with a super-generous lashing of Sikaflex EBT it gains a couple of mm, which is usually fine if your either over boarding 18mm deck with 9mm ply or 22mm deck with 4 or 6mm ply ( thinner ones glued and screwed ). As this was quite an adverse install I decided to let the  Amtico guys fit up to battens I'd set out and sort out the aftermath

In that pic the mosaic tiles look wonderful and flat, but what you can't see is all the flexi tile adhesive I built up in layers to bench up to the amtico -12mm which was around 8-9mm ?. Absolute bastard of a job to get looking AND falling right, but Nick the Mountie always gets his man . 

 

@Bitpipe's solution of lifting the tray with a ply sheet is the way forward in normal circumstances so follow that advice.

 

On 02/05/2017 at 08:16, JanetE said:

Surely you need to reinforce the floor with some kind of marine ply or cement board if you are going to tile on top of it all???

 

An excerpt from Impey.....

 

"

The new Aqua-Dec EasyFit solves the potential installation problem of the drainage point being obstructed by joists within timber floors. A unique, patent protected drainage feature allows the installer torotate the drain aperture to any position that will avoid the joist, or any other under floor obstruction. The Aqua-Dec EasyFit requires no underboarding and will support over 300kg (47 stone) when fitted directly to standard floor joists. It is the ideal solution for wheelchair showering and can be covered with vinyl flooring or tiled when used in conjunction with a membrane covering first.

The new Impey Aqua-Dec EasyFit has a computer designed celluar structure, which is compression moulded from high glass content SMC to provide the strongest nmost rigid construction on the market.
It requires no under boarding and will support over 300kg (47 stone) when fixed directly to standard floor joists.

The Aqua-Dec EasyFit is designed to provide the gradient required in the showering area for water drainage. What makes them so special is their extreme strength and rigidity, whilst only being 22mm thick at the outer rim.
The low profile is specially engineered to be the same depth as standard floorboards. You simply remove the floorboards and fix the Aqua Dec to the floor joists.

The revolutionary rotating drain point allows the drain position to be rotated through 360° to any position to avoid joists. If you need to trim or cut the Aqua Dec to avoid an obstruction it can be cut wioth a universal hand saw and drilled to provide additional screw fixing holes.

All Aqua-Dec EasyFits come with a tiled floor gully horizontal outlet drain as standard. The gully is a high quality water trap featuring a 50mm water seal, flexible 50mm outlet and a 50-40mm solvent weld reducer.

The height adjustable rings adjust to suit tile depths between 6mm and 26mm depending on waterproof membrane and adhesive thickness. The tanking ring secures the waterproofing membrane into place creating a secure watertight seal at the drainage point. The drain comes complete with a high quality, 4mm thick, stainless steel grate. Alternatives are available for vinyl flooring etc.

The Impey Aqua Dec Easy Fit can be cut to size, see the following for full details: Impey Aqua Dec Cutting & Drilling Guidelines (PDF)."

 

 

I still fit a lot more timber than they ask for, and sleep doubly soundly. The catcher timber at the edge of the tray is a no-brainer but pointless if it's not cradled / supported sufficiently. 

[Nickfromwales]

53 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

Now about 9 months later, I have a few hairline cracks in the grout on the tiling in the shower, presumably due to movement, but not that worried as I know it's bombproof underneath.

 

 

You really do need to ram the grout in when tiling over a wet former, frequently changing directions and going at 45o to the groutlines. As you say, it won't cause issue, because the tray is impervious to water and the tanking will direct any water seepage directly to the drain . 

[ProDave]

Okay, this is what I am working on.

 

View from above.

 

 

I am creating a framework around the shower former area LEVEL with the top of the posi joists, and some cross members as well.  I will later add cross members on the drain hole side of the former, one either side of the drain hole, but not until I actually have the formers so know exactly where that is (not theoretically)

 

This is how it looks from underneath

 

The cross members are screwed and glued to the underside of the top member of the posi joists, then packers cut and fitted in to also take support from the bottom member

 

The plan is, the shower former, AND the boards for the rest of the room, will all sit directly on the posi joists, then the whole lot will be tanked and tiled. I am NOT planning plywood anywhere.

 

There is another part to this, slightly related, is that most of the room will have a non structural  OSB or ply deck suspended UNDER the top member of the posi joists, to support UFH pipes under the final floor. .

[JanetE]

Pulling up this thread again, I've just started waterproofing our wet rooms. We bought the AKW formers from a company called Hurlston on eBay. They were very good value and excellent quality. They are 22mm the same as the flooring. The floors we covered in 12mm marine ply so we cut the holes for the formers and re inforced underneath as per @Nickfromwales instructions and then filled these with the ply to bring them up to the same level as the finished floor, then I glued and screwed everything down.

I was pretty concerned about doing all this we haven't done anything like it before. The tanking of the rooms has not been difficult, I just watched the YouTube videos and followed instructions. A bit of a messy job but very quick and easy.

So really just wanted to reassure anyone considering doing this for the first time that it's a pretty straightforward job.

I'm just hoping our tiler is happy with the result!

[Nickfromwales]

Shhhhhh @JanetE.....

I have to try and charge people for doing this on the basis that it's a "specialist job".  ? ? 

From now on just say it's really tricky and never try this at home ????

[ProDave]

Okay I am bringing up this old thread as I am getting close to buying my two wet room formers and tanking kits.

 

Have settled on the Imprey formers and tanking kit.

 

I need 2 formers each 1200 by 900 and two  5 square metre tanking kits. (One room will be a little over 5 sq m the other a little under)

 

My confusion is what is the difference between the impey easy fit and the impey aqua dek?  Are both self supporting (i.e supported on joists alone)?

 

Also where is the cheapest place to get these., I started looking at prices and was quite shocked.

 

Everywhere I have looked there is a huge (> £100 extra) if you select a drain for tiles vs a drain for vinyl. Thar can't be right?

[Lesgrandepotato]

They come with the drain for vinyl, tiles drain is an extra 65 quid or so. 

[Onoff]

How about a wall drain?

 

[ProDave]

12 minutes ago, Onoff said:

How about a wall drain?

 

Pushes the price of the tray up not to mention the price of the drain.

 

It would work for one of them, but since the drain usually runs along the long side, I would have to cut a big notch in a posi joist which of course is a no.