Just moved into 17th century stone cottage with no gas mains.

[mike2020]

Hi as the title says 17th century stone cottage rural location which now has a oil burning boiler, Carn't help but thinking the has got to be a better way of heating this house 2 bedroom but 5m sq rooms.. just paid £350 for 600 litres of oil which i was told will not heat my house for more than 7 or 8 weeks epc rating on the house is D.

 

Is ASHP a possibility ? epc rating low or should i just bite the bullet and put electric boiler in.

 

House is double glazed roof is insulated No cavity walls.

 

Had multifuel burner in my last house and they are a pain to run also expensive with coal and wood prices shooting up.

Iam in the process of striping all walls of gysum plaster and cement render replacing with lime render and lime plaster doing myself.

 

I have traditional yorkstone floors on the ground level.  can i have electric boiler ?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

 

[ProDave]

There is no easy answer to this, but a question that comes up frequently.

 

You may struggle to find an ASHP with a large enough output to heat what is a very poorly insulated high heat loss house.  And even if you do,  while it might be greener, it will not be cheaper to run than heating with oil.

 

The focus on your updating of the building should be to add insulation to walls and floors, improve windows and doors, make everything air tight etc and then see what the heat loss is like when you have made it as good as you can and choose a heat source.

[mike2020]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

There is no easy answer to this, but a question that comes up frequently.

 

You may struggle to find an ASHP with a large enough output to heat what is a very poorly insulated high heat loss house.  And even if you do,  while it might be greener, it will not be cheaper to run than heating with oil.

 

The focus on your updating of the building should be to add insulation to walls and floors, improve windows and doors, make everything air tight etc and then see what the heat loss is like when you have made it as good as you can and choose a heat source.

Walls are solid stone not cavity so carn't do anything there iam putting in wood wool boards in the celing spaces between wood joists and will later lime plaster. already has double glazing quite new ....not sure what else i can do ASHP out i figured that but thanks .

[epsilonGreedy]

4 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

 just paid £350 for 600 litres of oil which i was told will not heat my house for more than 7 or 8 weeks epc rating on the house is D.

 

 

That sounds about right, 1800 litres to get you through the coldest 5 months of the winter plus another 600 for the rest of the year.

 

You need to insulate with PIR foam insulated plasterboard and also get used to cold bedrooms. However wait a year before going down the insulated plasterboard route because you need to understand how dry your walls are as this affects your fixing options.

 

Following the adventures of Charlie DIYte on the subject:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYTbMi2Jgfk

 

[mike2020]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

That sounds about right, 1800 litres to get you through the coldest 5 months of the winter plus another 600 for the rest of the year.

 

You need to insulate with PIR foam insulated plasterboard and also get used to cold bedrooms. However wait a year before going down the insulated plasterboard route because you need to understand how dry your walls are as this affects your fixing options.

 

Following the adventures of Charlie DIYte on the subject:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYTbMi2Jgfk

 

Thanks will check that out on YT....iam fitting automatic dehumidefiers ducted in the house one upstairs one down which will control humidity and dewpoint of the house i was told wood wool boards where the best for ceiling spaces between wood joists then lime plaster over. i now wear pyjamas hahaha never used in my life.

[Temp]

32 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

...should i just bite the bullet and put electric boiler in.

 

If the oil boiler works I certainly would not install a simple electric boiler. Electricity is about THREE times the cost of oil per unit (kWH). 

 

An ASHP with a COP of three just about compensates for the high cost of electricity. However large ASHP are expensive. So you really need to insulate well so a small/normal power unit will work. That way you also save even more. Beware salesmen selling units that are undersized for the needs of the house. This would cause running costs to rise.

 

The only way an electric boiler makes sense is a) in a small well insulated flat where the absolute running cost is low or b) when the only alternative is a very large/expensive ASHP. In that case the capital cost saving might pay for the increased running cost. 

 

PS...

 

LPG is about double the cost of oil.

Wood Pellets are about same as oil.

 

Source: The table down this page https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/

See the column "Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)" as that's the one that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Temp

[epsilonGreedy]

6 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

Thanks will check that out on YT....iam fitting automatic dehumidefiers ducted in the house one upstairs one down which will control humidity and dewpoint of the house i was told wood wool boards where the best for ceiling spaces between wood joists then lime plaster over. i now wear pyjamas hahaha never used in my life.

 

Enhance with caution, old properties need to breath and shed moisture so don't smother it with modern exterior paint or go down the insulated plasterboard route before you understand how the structure behaves.

 

Give yourself a year to settle in, review your options and also acclimatise. Your grandparents thought it normal to wake up in the morning to a 10 degree bedroom and then go downstairs to build a fire.

 

Could you acquire an acre or two to start a coppicing rotation to grow firewood? That would halve your annual fuel bill.

[mike2020]

1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Enhance with caution, old properties need to breath and shed moisture so don't smother it with modern exterior paint or go down the insulated plasterboard route before you understand how the structure behaves.

 

Give yourself a year to settle in, review your options and also acclimatise. Your grandparents thought it normal to wake up in the morning to a 10 degree bedroom and then go downstairs to build a fire.

 

Could you acquire an acre or two to start a coppicing rotation to grow firewood? That would halve your annual fuel bill.

Yes you right watched the video big no no with this house hence why iam taking off previous owners cement render and gypsum plaster off the walls and using traditional lime render and plaster...lady next door has an acre or land behind the house doing nothing hmmn a thought.

[mike2020]

1 minute ago, mike2020 said:

Yes you right watched the video big no no with this house hence why iam taking off previous owners cement render and gypsum plaster off the walls and using traditional lime render and plaster...lady next door has an acre or land behind the house doing nothing hmmn a thought.

Removing all paint also has plastics in...will be using clay based paints only.

[mike2020]

23 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

If the oil boiler works I certainly would not install a simple electric boiler. Electricity is about THREE times the cost of oil per unit (kWH). 

 

An ASHP with a COP of three just about compensates for the high cost of electricity. However large ASHP are expensive. So you really need to insulate well so a small/normal power unit will work. That way you also save even more. Beware salesmen selling units that are undersized for the needs of the house. This would cause running costs to rise.

 

The only way an electric boiler makes sense is a) in a small well insulated flat where the absolute running cost is low or b) when the only alternative is a very large/expensive ASHP. In that case the capital cost saving might pay for the increased running cost. 

 

PS...

 

LPG is about double the cost of oil.

Wood Pellets are about same as oil.

 

Source: The table down this page https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/

See the column "Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)" as that's the one that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks will check it out.

[epsilonGreedy]

4 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

.lady next door has an acre or land behind the house doing nothing hmmn a thought.

 

 

I am typing with one finger. Re. Growing firewood there are some established calcs on kwh that can be harvested annually from an acre. You won't heat the whole house from an acre of coppice woodland but the contribution will be useful. After totting up your first hear of oil deliveries you will have an idea about annual space heating Kwh.

[epsilonGreedy]

8 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

Removing all paint also has plastics in...will be using clay based paints only.

 

The BBC will want to use your home to film a period drama.

[Cpd]

7 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Re. Growing firewood there are some established calcs on kwh that can be harvested annually from an acre. You won't heat the whole house from an acre of coppice woodland but the contribution will be useful.

 Be aware that this is a long term strategy and not for the faint hearted and you need to wait at least 7 years before your first crop and then only if you have good  ground and have looked after your crop. I have planted 4000+ trees on my property with the long term aim of supplementing my heating needs. 

[mike2020]

44 minutes ago, Cpd said:

 Be aware that this is a long term strategy and not for the faint hearted and you need to wait at least 7 years before your first crop and then only if you have good  ground and have looked after your crop. I have planted 4000+ trees on my property with the long term aim of supplementing my heating needs. 

Wow thats quite an undertaking 4000 plus trees to be honest the ground here is not the best full of stone.

[mike2020]

9 hours ago, Temp said:

 

If the oil boiler works I certainly would not install a simple electric boiler. Electricity is about THREE times the cost of oil per unit (kWH). 

 

An ASHP with a COP of three just about compensates for the high cost of electricity. However large ASHP are expensive. So you really need to insulate well so a small/normal power unit will work. That way you also save even more. Beware salesmen selling units that are undersized for the needs of the house. This would cause running costs to rise.

 

The only way an electric boiler makes sense is a) in a small well insulated flat where the absolute running cost is low or b) when the only alternative is a very large/expensive ASHP. In that case the capital cost saving might pay for the increased running cost. 

 

PS...

 

LPG is about double the cost of oil.

Wood Pellets are about same as oil.

 

Source: The table down this page https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/

See the column "Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)" as that's the one that matters.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply if wood pellets are the same as oil biomass boiler maybe ?

 

 

 

 

[Gone West]

10 hours ago, mike2020 said:

Any advice greatly appreciated.

We recently moved into an old bungalow created from a pair of 650mm thick sandstone walled cottages which has later additions. We are going to live with it for a year, burning oil, to see how it performs before making any changes. It has gypsum plaster inside and concrete render outside and has been like that since 1970. I've read over the years about how terrible that is but I have decided to wait and see. It's quite small, 120m2 and I've calculated the current heat loss is 17.4kW. If I do all the relatively easy improvements I should be able to get it down to 11.2kW. I don't know how that compares to yours but I've decided to stick with oil even though the latest R290 ASHPs are better at producing hot water, around 70C. When ASHPs definitely improve maybe a straight swap would be possible.

[ToughButterCup]

We moved out of a 16th Century house to build a near-passivhaus because of the exact same problems you face.  I say moved ... 30 meters.

 

There is no painless resolution to your problem. None. Sorry. I spent years working the issue through from first principles to planning and building our current home.

 

I will add my voice to those who say - wait - . . Measure building's performance. While thats happening, research. Go for the easy wins first, and while you're doing that waste time on BH. It will repay the effort.

Good luck

Ian

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

We moved out of a 16th Century house to build a near-passivhaus

We've done the opposite and although this place is warm and dry the energy consumption compared to our PH is amazing. I much prefer living in a PH but you can't have everything, perhaps I'll win the premium bonds.

[ToughButterCup]

I miss, like really really miss the  log fire in our old house.

 

We can see it when the current occupants (neighbours)  light up - Jealous Button clicks to ON - especially on Fiday nights. ?

We considered putting a log burner - just a dinky little toy one -  in (a la duct-the-air-in-from-the-outside-route), but there are enough stories on here of people who have put in a fire in a PH(ish) haus, and their  occupants being cooked as a result. 

[mike2020]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

We moved out of a 16th Century house to build a near-passivhaus because of the exact same problems you face.  I say moved ... 30 meters.

 

There is no painless resolution to your problem. None. Sorry. I spent years working the issue through from first principles to planning and building our current home.

 

I will add my voice to those who say - wait - . . Measure building's performance. While thats happening, research. Go for the easy wins first, and while you're doing that waste time on BH. It will repay the effort.

Good luck

Ian

Thanks BH ?

[ToughButterCup]

27 minutes ago, mike2020 said:

Thanks BH ?

Many times over.

One day I will write a simple list (with links to the threads) of items of expenditure on our house build where there was a demonstrable saving because of the input from BH members.....

 

Hmmmm, got me thinking now - just quickly - over £20,000 , but there's much more than that.....

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

can see it when the current occupants (neighbours)  light up -

Has your MVHR pulled in the healthy smell of particulates from the clean rural air yet.

[Thedreamer]

4 hours ago, mike2020 said:

Wow thats quite an undertaking 4000 plus trees to be honest the ground here is not the best full of stone.

 

Some trees are just brilliant. 

 

Alder is described as a pioneer tree. It growing in some poor soil/rocky conditions, improves the quality of the soil for future trees, is a quick grower and coppices well. Most of the trees my father in law planted were conifers but we also have established alder, oak and birch.

 

My set-up is a smallish wood burner in the centre of house surrounded by dense concrete blocks. From the home grown wood I gather I have no heating bills. My hot water comes from exhaust mini air source heat pump. 

 

It's a custom set-up for us in a recent self build, our electricity bills are between 10-11kWh a day.

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

I miss, like really really miss the  log fire in our old house.

I think we really are PH type people because we've just taken out a woodburning stove from this place and sold it to our neighbours. I remember from decades ago when I had a woodburner about the work involved in cutting and storing the logs, the dust and having a toasted face. It's the last thing I would want these days, lucky we are all different.

[Thedreamer]

2 minutes ago, Gone West said:

I think we really are PH type people because we've just taken out a woodburning stove from this place and sold it to our neighbours. I remember from decades ago when I had a woodburner about the work involved in cutting and storing the logs, the dust and having a toasted face. It's the last thing I would want these days, lucky we are all different.

 

It is whether you view the extra stuff in cutting and storing as being work, for me it's like a hobby and exercise. A bit like gardening.

 

I find that in a modern stove that the amount of dust and cleaning out of ash is very minimal.