New build floorplans - opinions welcome

[CharlieKLP]

1 hour ago, Gone West said:

 

I don't think those two comments mean the same.

 

The problem with design is that it is subjective not objective.

I don’t feel design is subjective. It’s either good or bad. 
 

Taste is subjective certainly. But you can also have good or bad taste. But taste is not based on knowledge, design is.
 

Good design is a response to something, an elegant solution. You need skill to create good design. Don’t devalue designers.

 

I think the idea that anyone can design and there’s no ‘good or bad’ is damaging to the self build arena, and results show it.

You wouldn’t design your own legal documents or cut your own hair, people go to university to study design and spend their lives honing their skill, stop doing it yourself. You’re civil servant/middle manager/accountant.

 

it’s actually more like movies. There’s good and bad movies, but now and again you get a vanity project that’s ‘funny’ bad.

Edited February 6, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[CharlieKLP]

Editing to add, because I don’t think I articulated that very well;

 

Art is subjective, design is not. Many non-designers confuse the two.

Art is ruthlessly subjective, art simply ‘is’. You can like or dislike it, you don’t have to justify why, ‘It looks nice’ is fine. You can go into it as a critic or talk about the ‘rules’ if you want, but they don’t exist, you can go from your gut.

 

Design is about successfully communicating functional ideas into concrete forms, to the intended audience. Function, need, reasoning and justification. These are objective things. It’s not about the designer’s ideology or emotion.
 

The user has a ‘need’ for the design, there’s objectives and a brief, other stakeholders (planners, budgeting, construction). 

 

When you design something, you are asking yourself questions;

 

’what is informing this design decision’ and ‘how can I validate this design choice’. So technically you can have an objectively ugly outcome, but as long as it fulfils the design requirements, its functional, it’s adequate design. 
 

As an example, if you ask a designer to make the windows bigger (as happened here), a good designer would say “why”. The windows they drew to start with were (presumably) that size as they fit the room and the lighting requirements, were the right cil height to satisfy building regs, and the right proportion for the front elevation. 
 

The client has to assume the designer has thought of this and approach with the blindfold half on.

 

But also in this case I feel like the designer hadn’t thought that much about the windows in the first place, then they blindly obeyed.
 

This is the blind leading the blind. And this is what you get.

 

I think a smart person wouldn’t employ a hack. They would accept their limits and find someone who could make smart design choices.
 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I hope it’s relevant and feel free to disagree!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[jack]

On 04/02/2022 at 21:39, Simplysimon said:

i've read this thread since it started and kept my peace, but since you've asked,? start again with a blank sheet, it's a pigs ear of a design, stop with the wow factor and build something that looks nice, is pleasant to live in and is energy efficient. as it's been mentioned before https://mcmansionhell.com/ 

 

Thanks so much for that link. JFC those are some unpleasant houses.

[Gone West]

4 hours ago, CharlieKLP said:

Art is subjective, design is not. Many non-designers confuse the two.

It is certainly an interesting subject. The 'monstrous carbuncle' springs to mind. So was that good design, poor design or just mediocre. Interesting that there were so many different opinions for something that should be judged objectively.

[CharlieKLP]

2 hours ago, Gone West said:

It is certainly an interesting subject. The 'monstrous carbuncle' springs to mind. So was that good design, poor design or just mediocre. Interesting that there were so many different opinions for something that should be judged objectively.

I agree! it’s super interesting. Again, just my opinion here…

 

You certainly can have subjectively different ideas on style, taste and aesthetics, that’s where design crosses into art to form ‘architecture’.

Some people think wind farms are aesthetically pleasing and some do not, but they are objectively ‘good design’ either way - 
their job isn’t to look pretty.

 

The carbuncle though, it’s aesthetically poor in my opinion; but some might not agree.
I don’t know exactly what the brief was, or why they designed it the way they did. A brief look seems to say it’s out of scale to the area and  it separated the poor and the wealthy apartments in a really sinister way. But, it got planning and built right? Some things seemed to qualify as ‘adequate’ design at least. 
 

As a public building, is part of the design criteria to be ‘pleasing to the masses’? Because look at the Pompidou Centre or others.
 

Generally I think, if you follow the basic principles of good design you will get something aesthetically pleasing to most. 
 

But yes you can judge the aesthetics in different ways, that’s why sometimes I’ve built houses that were “beautiful in different ways”(ie = ugly), but I don’t think that makes it bad design. 

[jack]

22 hours ago, ETC said:

@Indy @CharlieKLP

 

I really like this take.

[Mr Punter]

43 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I really like this take.

 

+1

[jamieled]

11 hours ago, CharlieKLP said:

You wouldn’t design your own legal documents or cut your own hair

 

Oops. Failed with those two then. But this is a self build forum, people are generally biased towards doing things themselves. 

That's not to say that either my haircut or contract documents are pretty though.

[Zak S]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:03, ETC said:

@Indy @CharlieKLP

This is grand design kind of design and very pretty and modern but would it fit on the road and get planners approval easily and to everyone's taste, I am not sure about it as neither I dont know the road nor I know the personal preference of @Indy I.e. traditional/moderns etc. I know if you are even closer to conservation kind of area you would struggle as know a similar case.

 

That front porch in OP is a quite overpowering and the too be honest comparatively I liked the original design and the recent update has made it worse. Why is that huge porch required. If you remove it you could alternate the roof design and designer will have more flexibility in respect of the front facade. If the porch has been recommended by the architect, I would suggest seriously consider the design approach and as other have suggested create a pinterest board with respect to design you like. For a project costing £1m or more as OP suggested, please dont rush the design phase. That's a key phase. The comments here have been brutal but given the amount of money OP is going to spend the thinking/designer need a good shakeup. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Zak S

[Indy]

In a way I'm glad that the post has generated such a healthy amount of discussion including some deep, somewhat philosophical arguments about what constitutes beauty and what's a good design etc.

 

I'm going to stick to my guns and say I still really like the frontage. Not because I have to dig my heels in and back up my initial assertion, but because I truly do. My wife does, our families do and even some of our close friends we've shown it to. Some of that may be politeness but not everyone would collectively lie to us if they were that drastically bad. I will concede that none of them are self builders or immersed in the topic as deeply as the posters on this thread, and that was exactly the reason why I posted and kept coming back on this forum. 

 

Yes, I have seen better designs and I have seen worse designs. I would even put my neck above the parapet to say that I actually liked some of the designs on the McMansion website posted earlier. I see nothing wrong with designing a house that has a wow factor. Why shouldn't you feel proud of something if you're spending that much time, effort and money on it? It will still be built with fabric first principles - airtightness, thermal efficiency, MVHR, ASHP, UFH and now increasingly likely to include Solar PV connected to DHW. But that doesnt mean I want go for a bland square box or design only for efficiency. 

 

I am incorporating the feedback into my discussions with the architects and see where this takes us. Don't disagree with the fact that time spent now at the design stage will save us a lot of grief later, though its really hard to reconcile when every fibre of my being just wants to get the plans submitted so we can feel a sense of achievement for checking that box!

 

Budget wise, my thoughts have been massively refined since the time I posted my other costing thread. 2 visits to the NSRBC and Build it Live this weekend lead me to believe £2-£2.5k/sq m is achievable and that's a much easier pill to swallow as compared to the £3.5k I was being quoted earlier. 

[Indy]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:03, ETC said:

@Indy @CharlieKLP

 

This one is a big improvement over the initial designs you've posted and I can only say thanks again, but the major drawback with this design is the room sizes and how they would be constrained. We do have to deal with the fact that its a narrow plot, and if we leave 2m on one side, then create a hallway in the middle on the 1st floor all the way through - that would lead to quite small room sizes internally. 

 

One of the, if not the primary reason for us to self build was the room sizes and how I couldn't find anything on the market that really met our needs. I like big expansive rooms and most of the properties available on the market usually have the primary room of a decent size and the others are too small to do anything decent with. 

[Andehh]

Very interesting thread! I quite like OPs original design (but then I also like my big black SUV on big Alloys).... On the other hand the property design posted above looks half finished & as if someone ran out of time so just stopped. 

 

Taste is always an interesting one!

[CharlieKLP]

Hey @Indy could you give us a rough idea how much the designers have charged you so far?

 

I always find that really interesting and would love to know for when I do it myself.

[Zak S]

3 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

Hey @Indy could you give us a rough idea how much the designers have charged you so far?

 

I always find that really interesting and would love to know for when I do it myself.

 

My guess would be something around 5-8k including the building regs. Anything more will be hard pill to swallow at least for me. I agreed 15k+ with mine and had a quote of 6k as well but the feedback on 6k was that guy simply draws what he is asked rather than adding true value. I know not my place to answer the above but just wanna be proved wrong.

[CharlieKLP]

17 minutes ago, Zak S said:

 

My guess would be something around 5-8k including the building regs. Anything more will be hard pill to swallow at least for me. I agreed 15k+ with mine and had a quote of 6k as well but the feedback on 6k was that guy simply draws what he is asked rather than adding true value. I know not my place to answer the above but just wanna be proved wrong.

 

Do you think including building regs? My guess is 15k and *then* building regs lol

I wouldn’t do 3Ds for free.

 

[Zak S]

13 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

 

Do you think including building regs? My guess is 15k and *then* building regs lol

I wouldn’t do 3Ds for free.

 

 For 15k I would expect building regs included. Probably it's the regional difference. The numbers I quoted were for Staffordshire. 

 

Yes the building regs and 3D externals renders included. I had three quotes and they all came between £6k and £16k. Not sure if application to satisfy planning conditions are ever included. Need to check though.

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, CharlieKLP said:

I wouldn’t do 3Ds for free.

 

I thought these were always outsourced nowadays.

[Indy]

On 07/02/2022 at 07:38, CharlieKLP said:

Hey @Indy could you give us a rough idea how much the designers have charged you so far?

 

I always find that really interesting and would love to know for when I do it myself.

 

Happy to send you a discreet message as I wouldn't like to plaster that over a public forum. They were very competitive I'll add - not the cheapest and not the most expensive either.

[CharlieKLP]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

 

Happy to send you a discreet message as I wouldn't like to plaster that over a public forum. They were very competitive I'll add - not the cheapest and not the most expensive either.

oh that would be lovely yes please.

[saveasteading]

On 21/01/2022 at 09:02, Thorfun said:

we have one too from our bedroom overlooking the flat wildflower roof.

I am catching up on this thread and saw your picture. 

A very clever solution, on the first assumption that a green roof is wanted

For the view from a balcony the green is a justifiable able decision I think. Otherwise I am not a believer.

 

But the idea of a perimeter of stones is excellent.

The green stuff really has to stop well short of the edge for various practical reasons (access/maintenance)

The membrane has to be special anti-root stuff except it can't stand UV, hence the stones. The stony area will also allow some movement of water as in a french drain.

The stones look good too, and are no heavier than the green area.

 

I like it...in your circumstances.

[saveasteading]

On 21/01/2022 at 18:22, Zak S said:

local estate agent and getting their opinion as to how to maximise the value from the design.

Really? The dozens I have had to work with only judge valuations by similar buildings in the area.

A better than average one may know enough to say that it won't influence the sales value much or at all (unless the views are great) .

Either somebody loves the house or doesn't.

But if you want it and plan to live in it then you should do it.

 

Round here a balcony is a place to put the bike and hang the washing.

[Indy]

Back with an update after another (and final) round of updates with our architect.

 

The main changes we've made are around the palette of materials and colour choices as the design is fairly contemporary/modern but the choice of traditional materials (mainly brick) and colours (red/white) was coming across as quite brutal/intimidating? We asked an open ended question to the architect and this was the recommendation on what they'd do if it was their house. I hadn't really considered going for a render finish in white and grey roof, but I do have to say - it looks quite good on the renders. Plus it matches what the next door neighbours did, so will be an easier sell to the planners.

 

Other changes are more subtle like increasing the roof overhang slightly so we can fit some external lighting on, making provisions for solar panels on the south side of the roof (not reflected on the renders) and some internal changes to the roof design. Basically opted to simplify internally and go for a raised truss roof which will allow us to keep the costs low (expensive steel not required), and the missus wasn't really into the whole vaulted ceilings look.

 

Settled on this now and the 'crisp white offset by the grey' look has really grown on me in the last 2 weeks since we first saw it.

 

 

 

[Zak S]

Gate and railing might look better with similar colour as the windows and frames. Currently it appears to be black. Definitely an improvement on the bricks design. Z clad and render looks nice as well. Might be worth considering.

[Indy]

49 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Gate and railing might look better with similar colour as the windows and frames. Currently it appears to be black. Definitely an improvement on the bricks design. Z clad and render looks nice as well. Might be worth considering.

Agreed, these are the placeholders for now but we’ve replaced the arched style for a more contemporary sliding gate to be reflected on the drawings. Design and colour will be finalised later. 

[CharlieKLP]

That’s actually an improvement.

 

although I would make the porch smaller and make that stone to match the window bits.