Not enough glue in 22mm Egger Chipboard installation?

[Adsibob]

The chipboard flooring has started to go down onto the posi joists on the first floor. So far, about 2 out of the 5 rooms have been done on that floor. I gave the builder the instructions and pointed out to him that he needed to use two beads of glue on each tongue and groove joint. Following advice I'd read here, I also told his foreman: "this is the one job where I won't mind if it's messy and there's lots of glue coming out the joints - I want plenty of glue". The problem was that this was about a month ago when I thought they would be installing the floor, but due to various delays they only started yesterday. It is far too neat for them to have used the amount of glue I asked them to. No glue whatsover has leaked out the joins. Walking across the boards it feels solid with no creaking, so I'm possibly worrying about nothing (I'm good at that). Posi joists are at 400mm centres. I queried the insufficiency of the glue and was reassured that there is enough. I don't think taking up the floor and re-doing it is an option as it will no doubt damage the T&G joints and they have promised to use more on the rest of the floor.

Is there anything I can do at this stage to strengthen the joins? Paste glue over the joins both on the upper side and the lower side? Tape the joins? If so, what glue or what tape? Tape is probably easier than painting on glue and is less likely to interfere with the rubber matting I am laying over the chipboard.

 

[willbish]

Tape or additional glue isn't going to do anything.

 

All you can do is check sufficient fixings have been used and add any that are missing. Three per joist per board so 21 total. Floortite screws and not nails ideally 

 

[joe90]

My flooring had glue running out of the joints above and below, it does sound like they were mean with it. I don’t suppose there is any way of proving them wrong tho ?. If you wanted to test it you could use a hole saw and take a plug out across a join somewhere (under a wardrobe/bath!,,) then see if the two halves are glued, if not you have evidence.

[Mr Punter]

The most recent floor fitting instructions specify D4 adhesive on top of the joists and in the T & G.  The stuff bubbles up and generally drips down to the floor below.  The old instructions just used PVA adhesive on the joints.

[Nickfromwales]

Can you see displaced glue at the sides of the joists when you look up from underneath?

[Adsibob]

6 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Can you see displaced glue at the sides of the joists when you look up from underneath?

I wasn't looking for that specifically when I was on site this morning, but I don't recall seeing it. I will check again tomorrow.

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Adsibob said:

I wasn't looking for that specifically when I was on site this morning, but I don't recall seeing it. I will check again tomorrow.

If it’s not made its way out there, they’ve been more than conservative with the glue for sure. It’s nigh on impossible NOT to get that displacement. If not evident, time to get proof. 

[Adsibob]

Hmmm. I hate these sorts of conversations. Bloody annoying because i have an email from a couple of months ago where I sent the builder Egger's PDF instructions and the PDF is clear that there needs to be two beads of glue on every joist.

The PDF (attached) also has a fifth step that says: 

Seal any exposed mechanical fixings, perimeter
edges, cut edges and stairwells using EGGER Joint
& Joist Adhesive. Once the building is watertight,
excess adhesive can be removed with a scraper.

 

Presumably painting Egger Joint and Joint Adhesive over the joins with the beams isn't going to do much at this stage?

EGGER installation instructions.pdf

Edited August 3, 2021 by Adsibob

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Presumably painting Egger Joint and Joint Adhesive over the joins with the beams isn't going to do much at this stage?

NO ?

[Adsibob]

Okay, I'm on site now. Definitely no glue in between the joists and the chipboard. Spoke to foreman and he was pretty relaxed about it, thought it wasn't necessary. The floor has actually been fitted in between the partition walls, so if all the floor screws were unscrewed it could be pushed up from underneath and glue could be squeezed in before it is lowered back down again (Foreman's suggestion not mine). I'm wondering however whether it's worth the hassle. Won't there be a risk of damaging the chipboard if we do this, which could end up worse or the same as how it is now?

[Mr Punter]

The Egger adhesive is D4 and will bubble up between the boards.  If you cannot see any they have not applied it correctly.  If they used PVA you may not see it as it dries fairly clear and does not bubble up.

[Adsibob]

37 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

The Egger adhesive is D4 and will bubble up between the boards.  If you cannot see any they have not applied it correctly.  If they used PVA you may not see it as it dries fairly clear and does not bubble up.

Thanks. Not sure which they use, but it will have been one of these (and the foreman told me they are the same product just branding differences):

1. D4 wood glue and
2. https://www.everbuild.co.uk/product/502-all-purpose-weatherproof-wood-adhesive/

[Declan52]

If they used d4 glue there is no chance that floor will come up. D4 glue expands and will come out of the edges of the boards. It will be very noticeable. 

I would get them to do as he suggested and pull the screws out enough to lift the board up and allow a bead of D4 glue, not some cheap ass alternative wood glue, to be put on top of the joists. 

[James Newport]

22 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Thanks. Not sure which they use, but it will have been one of these (and the foreman told me they are the same product just branding differences):

1. D4 wood glue and
2. https://www.everbuild.co.uk/product/502-all-purpose-weatherproof-wood-adhesive/

 

The second one is PVA based glue and only D3 grade - according to the datasheet you linked to. 

 

D4 refers to the strength grading of the glue (http://www.constructionchemicals.co.uk/blog/2015/07/13/what-are-d1-d2-d3-d4-adhesives/)

 

If you go with the approach of lifting the boards and squeezing in glue, you can get it in cartridge gun format e.g. https://www.toolstation.com/5-minute-polyurethane-wood-glue-gel/p78519

 

I've only used a D4 polyurethene based glue, and this does foam up and go everywhere. But there are other types of D4 glue (e.g. https://www.everbuild.co.uk/product/d4-wood-adhesive/) which may well not foam up like the polyurethene D4 stuff. 

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, James Newport said:

 

 

 

If you go with the approach of lifting the boards and squeezing in glue, you can get it in cartridge gun format e.g. https://www.toolstation.com/5-minute-polyurethane-wood-glue-gel/p78519

 

 

Thanks @James Newport, the cartridge gun is a good idea, but the "sets in 5 minutes" makes me think it's actually not possible to fix this. The idea the foreman had was to unscrew the floor from the joists and lift the hole thing up, then applly the glue and lower the floor back onto it. If they only have 5 minutes before it sets, I don't think they'll be able to do it in that time without pushing some of the floor down and not other parts. If they did that, they would surely break the floor into pieces or at least bend/damage it.

Maybe we should just leave it and add a load of floortite screws?

[James Newport]

You can probably find longer setting glue in cartridge form, or if not, decant some longer setting stuff into some empty cartridges.

 

But I think you should call the foreman's bluff - lift the whole floor up in one go??? That's a lot of weight for a bunch of guys balanced on ladders, and then hold it up while one of them squirts in glue? He's pulling your leg. So yes, definitely pretend you want to do it as punishment for him evidently not bothering to read product data sheets, or the installation instructions...

 

 

[James Newport]

Or, if you really want to make him sweat, insist on them gluing strips of wood between the underside of the floor and the joists - effectively the floor is then glued to the this extra wood, which in turn is glued to the joist. This is how I was able to eliminate some squeaks in tongue and grooved chipboard that had only been nailed from above and then already carpeted (meaning that the sensible option of screwing the boards down wasn't an option)

[Nickfromwales]

Ok. Time for a reality check…….

Has the builder said that a glue of whatever type had been used? If he says yes, then get a 100mm hole saw and sample 4 areas ACROSS joists. Remove the pilot after the hole has been started and then you won’t penetrate the top chord of the joist. If the discs of board come loose and lift out then his bluff is called. 
Start there. Don’t bend and tell them you want to know without any shadow of a bout that “a glue” has indeed been used. 
The part that stinks the most here is the fact that the builder has said that the floor will lift!! That tells me no glue whatsoever has been used because if it had you would NOT lift that floor 1mm. 
Stinks of no glue to me. Call it, and get the deck samples across the pozi’s and don’t accept any more BS. 

[Ronan 1]

If he's admitted to not installing as per spec tell him to get it taken up and start again from scratch.

 

DO NOT accept a bodge to fox a bodge , Its you that will have to live with it

[James Newport]

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Definitely no glue in between the joists and the chipboard. Spoke to foreman and he was pretty relaxed about it, thought it wasn't necessary

There is no glue. The foreman has proclaimed that the manufacturer knows nothing. 

[Adsibob]

47 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Ok. Time for a reality check…….

Has the builder said that a glue of whatever type had been used? If he says yes, then get a 100mm hole saw and sample 4 areas ACROSS joists. Remove the pilot after the hole has been started and then you won’t penetrate the top chord of the joist. If the discs of board come loose and lift out then his bluff is called. 
Start there. Don’t bend and tell them you want to know without any shadow of a bout that “a glue” has indeed been used. 
The part that stinks the most here is the fact that the builder has said that the floor will lift!! That tells me no glue whatsoever has been used because if it had you would NOT lift that floor 1mm. 
Stinks of no glue to me. Call it, and get the deck samples across the pozi’s and don’t accept any more BS. 

There is glue between the tongue and groove (they tell me - I can't see it), but I don't think there is any between the posi joist and  the board. He was adamant about it being there between the T and G, and very clueless when I said it didn't look like they're was any between the board and the joist. So in pretty sure they have just glued the T+G. It's really pretty pathetic that they are so overconfident they do stuff without checking the instructions that I specifically bring to their attention. 

But I feel I'm in a no-win situation. I can get difficult and refuse to pay the next bill until this is redone or fixed, but that isn't really going to help the relationship, and there is a risk the builder then cuts corners elsewhere which I can't spot. I'm just a layman who reads a lot. 

So I'm trying to find the easiest way to fix this, because that is the only way in reality in likely to be able to improve the situation. Or I could sack the builder, but I don't think that is really such a great idea... better the devil you know and all that.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Adsibob

[Declan52]

Find the last section of board in the final run and take the screws out and try and lift the board out. You will quickly be able to see if it's got any glue. 

[Roundtuit]

I had a box of D4 glue left over after our floor deck was laid.  I thought the frame supplier had over supplied.  Only later do you find out that you have some creaks and squeaks in the floor and suspect they probably didn't use enough...

 

Bite the bullet and sort it now is my advice.

[Adsibob]

6 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

I had a box of D4 glue left over after our floor deck was laid.  I thought the frame supplier had over supplied.  Only later do you find out that you have some creaks and squeaks in the floor and suspect they probably didn't use enough...

 

Bite the bullet and sort it now is my advice.

Yeah, you are right. They will have to sort it out. When he jumps on it and says  "see, rock solid” how do I explain the importance of the glue in the long term life of the boards?

[Nickfromwales]

24 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

There is glue between the tongue and groove (they tell me - I can't see it), but I don't think there is any between the posi joist and  the board. He was adamant about it being there between the T and G, and very clueless when I said it didn't look like they're was any between the board and the joist. So in pretty sure they have just glued the T+G. It's really pretty pathetic that they are so overconfident they do stuff without checking the instructions that I specifically bring to their attention. 

But I feel I'm in a no-win situation. I can get difficult and refuse to pay the next bill until this is redone or fixed, but that isn't really going to help the relationship, and there is a risk the builder then cuts corners elsewhere which I can't spot. I'm just a layman who reads a lot. 

So I'm trying to find the easiest way to fix this, because that is the only way in reality in likely to be able to improve the situation. Or I could sack the builder, but I don't think that is really such a great idea... better the devil you know and all that.

Yes, it can be a double-edged sword.

You need to pull this guy to one side, and have a quiet chat away from the build so he takes you a little more seriously. He will likely be a little more humble then too.

In terms of moving forward, you now need a solid deck and nothing more really, so options need bringing to the table.

IMHO you have only one option at this stage, and that is to get the builder to screw these boards down, 5 screws per 600mm joist line with them starting and finishing 50mm away from the tongues / grooves. You need to stipulate to this chap that the screws need to be JUST pulled just under flush with the top surface of the boards and not smashed through thus losing all purchase. Explain if this is done, and the floor can be walked on without squeaks etc, and he carries this out meticulously, you will be willing to settle on that middle ground. Explain to him calmly, that if that detail is not executed to the letter ( word ) then he will become responsible for removing the walls and floors and starting over again, or paying for someone else to do so after he has been asked to leave.

The bar needs to be set ( or reset ) before this guy does ANY more work for you.

Next.

It is YOUR responsibility to make sure any 'old correspondence' is dusted off and reiterated. Every inch you give = a mile away from what you expect. Expect nothing, assume less, reiterate everything and check, check and check again.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Nickfromwales