Solicitor use - Self build

[aims]

Hi All,

First time self builder here and wanted to get an idea when I should hire a Solicitor in the whole process. My general understanding of the flow is:

1. Design
2. Planning application
3. Solicitor is then used to buy/transfer/split the land
4. Solicitor help to apply for mortgage
5. Build

One of the package companies I am talking to mentioned that we should hire a solicitor to get legal advice to confirm if it is possible to build on the land (i.e. to find out if there any points of concern that may prevent us building) before getting into the design of the house. 

 

Is this normal to hire a solicitor to check if we can build on the plot before getting the designing under way? I would have though a Planning Application would have confirmed if it was possible to build or not?

Is there anything else Solicitors are needed for that I may be missing?

 

Thanks for any help!

[MikeSharp01]

Usual to get the land first as the design will usually only work in one place so needs the place. Buying usually needs the solicitor so at the start seems right BUT before you buy the land you need to know what the chances are of obtaining PP would be. Although in theory you can go for planning permission on land you don't own because it's an open process others will spot the PP and the value of the land will probably go up. I think the general experience here is get the land first but either pay very little for it if there is a risk of not obtaining PP or compete with others on price if there is a reasonable expectation that PP will be granted.  We solved the problem here by buying a tumbledown shack and then obtaining PP when we owned it. On our case the plot is not big enough to split.

Edited March 11, 2017 by MikeSharp01
Typos

[MrP]

This really depends on the relationship you have with the current landowner and also the price of the land (i.e. Worst case can you afford the risk of owning an undevelopable plot if pp can not be obtained). You could end up spending thousands on design and planning fees for the landowner to then cash in on your work and outlay to sell to highest bidder unless you can fully trust them to stick to original agreed price (very unlikely unless it is owned by family member).

I think the best way would be to have a pre-planning discussion with the local planning authority (sometimes free, sometimes a small fee), they will generally give you a good idea if anything and if so what type of build will be accepted on the plot.

If that is a positive meeting then i would negotiate with the landowner a price or have a survey to agree value and fair price. I would then approach a solicitor to draw up an option contract, this is a binding agreement but you will have to pay a deposit upfront that will secure the land at the agreed price if and when planning permission can be obtained. Beware the deposit can be lost however if pp can not be obtained - there is always some upfront risk and capital when buying land without planning.

Edited March 11, 2017 by MrP

[ProDave]

Your appointing a solicitor at stage 3 after planning, suggests you are buying a plot "subject to planning permission"  There is nothing unusual in that, indeed that is exactly what we did. BUT you need the solicitor on board right at the first to draft a legally tight agreement to buy the plot if you get the planning.

 

Solicitor is not normally needed for planning / build etc.

 

A planning application will only confirm the principle that you can put a house that looks like that on the plot. It does NOT ,ean you can actually build the house. Ground conditions, a gas main right through the plot etc can easily prevent you physically being able to build the house, as can a lack of a drainage solution etc.

[lizzie]

18 hours ago, aims said:

Hi All,

First time self builder here and wanted to get an idea when I should hire a Solicitor in the whole process. My general understanding of the flow is:

1. Design
2. Planning application
3. Solicitor is then used to buy/transfer/split the land
4. Solicitor help to apply for mortgage
5. Build

One of the package companies I am talking to mentioned that we should hire a solicitor to get legal advice to confirm if it is possible to build on the land (i.e. to find out if there any points of concern that may prevent us building) before getting into the design of the house. 

 

Is this normal to hire a solicitor to check if we can build on the plot before getting the designing under way? I would have though a Planning Application would have confirmed if it was possible to build or not?

Is there anything else Solicitors are needed for that I may be missing?

 

Thanks for any help!

I would think you need a solicitor on board not only for option etc as others have said but to see if there are any restrictive covenants that affect the land. Planning permission only gives you permission to construct a building within the guildlines granted  - if the land has a restrictive covenant excluding or limiting building on the land then no matter what PP you have you cannot build until that is resolved. In 90% of cases it is possible to buy out of or otherwise negate the covenant but it is not a certainty some can and do remain in force and prevent building irrespective of land ownership and planning permission. Talk to the lawyer at an early stage.

[aims]

Thanks all for the replies. I think the main concern was to confirm if their were any covenants on the land as mentioned by @lizzie before even getting to the design and planning stage. I'm  in the fortunate position where the land is family owned so do have reduced risk.

 

Would anyone have any recommendations for solicitors (I live in London if that helps)? And any idea what is a reasonable price for solicitor checks on covenants, etc? I ask because having spoken to a few last year about transfer of land I was being quoted between £1000-2500 which is a fairly wide difference.

[Grosey]

If it's just covenants you are worried about could you not purchase a copy of the title deeds yourself from the land registry website yourself and check? I'm fairly sure that's all a solicitor would do, except a solicitor is £100s and getting the documents yourself is about £3

[Jeremy Harris]

My experience of using solicitors for plot purchase was not great.  In general, the conveyancing staff at the solicitors will probably be unfamiliar with dealing with plot purchases, will have a lack of knowledge about things that are always an issue, like boundary positions, and overall they add very little value to the process.  Both plots we looked at, and where we had instructed a solicitor, had problems that the solicitor didn't help with at all.  I'd go so far as to say that you're far better doing all the investigation work yourself, as at least that way you can be sure that you understand all the issues. 

 

You absolutely cannot rely on a solicitor to undertake all the checks needed for a plot purchase, as they are unlikely to pick up critical issues.

[aims]

I think Covenants were just one of things the company suggested. They mentions things like rights of way, wayleaves, etc that a Solicitor should be able to help? I have actually the Title Register (in the process of obtaining the deeds to confirm the boundaries) which does a mention a covenant (back in 1930) to not build a new premises which will "carry on of the business of a Licensed Victualler or the sale or supply of Beer Wine Spirits or other alcoholic liquors". So I don't think it will be impacting me

 

@JSHarris This is probably where my experience (lack of) shines through. Would you be able recommend the kinds of investigation work I should do? I'm aware of the planning application requirements, flood risk, service connections, no mortgage on the land, and the covenant mentioned above. I've been reading Mark Brinkley's Housebuilding bible and he mentions a few legal points to investigate : Boundaries, Covenants, Rights of way and wayleaves that "should be uncovered by your solicitor's search". Doesn't really go into more detail.

[Jeremy Harris]

My experience was that our solicitor did nothing with respect to boundary checks, other than get the Land Registry Title Plans and pass them to me for accuracy checking, both times.  I could have saved the fee and got the Title Plans myself for a few pounds and done the same as I ended up doing.  Rights of Way were another thing not adequately checked for the first plot; I had to drive over to the council offices in Newport and inspect the records myself, a round trip of around 250 miles.  The fact that there was an underground power cable crossing our plot at 45 degrees, right under where the house was going to go, wasn't picked up by the solicitor, either; that was spotted by our boundary surveyor (who we paid directly to convince the vendor that there was a large boundary error) when he found a couple of markers, partially hidden by undergrowth and suggested it might be useful to hire a CAT and check to see if it was a live cable.  I did and it was live, plus there was no wayleave recorded for it.

 

I did all the running around and passed lots of information back to our solicitor, but really only used them to get a legal opinion on what things meant or what legal means we had to resolve the boundary problems.  Overall I was not impressed, I think I did around 80% of the work and the solicitor acted as an expensive correspondence service a lot of the time.

[PeterW]

One of the only uses Solicitors have is for their professional indemnity insurance - get everything in writing and request everything in writing ....

 

To dispel a couple of myths, most if not all but the specialist solicitors do not do their own searches ..! They use search companies who pay grads to go and sit in Severn Trents GIS kiosk or wherever and look on screen to see if there is anything near your plot. My experience is if you don't ask, you don't get ...

 

TPOs are another classic - most councils "should" have their TPO data available online, but most can't afford the open GIS license needed to do the map displays at the level needed to display a single tree. Our search came back with TPO on it - we have 11 trees - but I knew none of them were covered as I had a tree survey that would have shown them and it didn't. Transpires that if you ask a local authority that question, they return EVERY TPO within 15m of the plot boundary ..! 

 

If you are buying an infill plot then look for the tell tale signs on the ground for unmarked sewers and drainage - look over the neighboring fences for manholes. A good rule of thumb - but not a guarantee - is that the "long" side of a manhole indicates the pipe direction.  

 

You can ask any council for access to the RoW maps and any local service maps - they may include paths and boundaries that will help you define the correct site layout. It also gives you chance to validate any previous planning applications around the site and see what has been approved or declined before. 

 

All of this costs you time but it is cheaper than a solicitor and also may bring up things you won't get from a solicitor search. We found that there is a 63mm gas pipe just over our fence in the neighbors garden - this was from the National Grid online planning tool (free..!) but the neighbours solicitors property search 18 months previous hadn't shown it.....  

[ToughButterCup]

21 hours ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

You absolutely cannot rely on a solicitor to undertake all the checks needed for a plot purchase, as they are unlikely to pick up critical issues.

 

 

How right.... but what you can do is network and find a really sharp solicitor who specialises in this 'field' (sorry). Bit like using a screwdriver that fits the screw head perfectly rather than well-enough.

[Oz07]

Hope it's not the difference between Phillips and pozi. 90% of blokes I work with can't tell between

[ToughButterCup]

An excellent example @Oz07. You need that degree of fit to get the right level of service. And it's not as easy as selecting from a series of tools on a rack.

I spent many hours getting it wrong. Excellent solicitors don't cost that much more than their mediocre counterparts. But they take a lot of finding.

[lizzie]

I am in the fortunate position that other half is a solicitor and a specialist planning lawyer and he deals with plots and developers all the time.

I do think some of the expectations as to what a solicitor will do are a little wide of the mark. Boundaries for example, plot or house purchase a solicitor will always ask you to confirm the plan. If you want them to go out and walk your boundaries with you then that is not usual its a special request situation and would obviously cost. 

All Solicitors do use specialist search companies the days of being able to do a 'personal search' by turning up at the local council office are long gone. Searches take many forms, land registry search to show title, boundaries, covenants etc, local searches which covers the planning, the info about the local area etc then there are things such as drainage, mining and other searches.

You will surely have knowledge of your plot and tell the lawyer if you think there are particular areas of concern that you would like investigated over and above the norm.

I think people sometimes cut costs and make the mistake of using a 'conveyancer' who is someone who mainly deals with  house purchase and sale rather than  a solicitor who specialises with sale and purchase of 'land'. Would you employ the hygienist at the dentist to take your tooth out.....horses for courses find someone experienced in land and plot purchase not a standard high st conveyancer. It will cost more, it is a different job and requires different skills than the standard house purchase.

[Roundtuit]

5 minutes ago, lizzie said:

I think people sometimes cut costs and make the mistake of using a 'conveyancer' 

 

Yep, I did that, but more for convenience than cost saving.  When I lost confidence and the error became apparent, I 'dismissed' the conveyancer and got a proper local solicitor.  The transaction was put back on track OK, but I reckon I'd be in a better position if I'd done that in the first place...

[aims]

It is interesting to read. It seems based on all comments a combination of Solicitor search and a charted surveyor (in addition to my own investigation) may be the best way to find out about the land before getting into the design phase?