ASHP

[nod]

We met with the Architect yesterday and was quite surprised when he suggested an oil fired boiler as apposed to ASHP 

He said it’s ok getting rid of all the gas and oil boilers But stated ASHP are no better as the electricity that runs them will likely be generated by fosle fuels 

He has a point 

[Bitpipe]

13 minutes ago, nod said:

We met with the Architect yesterday and was quite surprised when he suggested an oil fired boiler as apposed to ASHP 

He said it’s ok getting rid of all the gas and oil boilers But stated ASHP are no better as the electricity that runs them will likely be generated by fosle fuels 

He has a point 

 

Well, no he doesn't.

 

The UK renewables (wind, water, wood, sun) generation share for electricity is now on par with gas & coal (41% each) with nuclear making up the rest. Will only increase as coal and then gas plants are decommissioned and they are not building new ones.

 

You can sign up for plans that are renewable only electricity (Octopus etc).

 

Even when electricity is generated by fossil fuel, the pollution is centralised.

 

[Dan F]

To be fair, I don't think heating systems are most architect's area of expertise!  If you can, get some advice from an M&E consultant or from talking to various installers that have experience with renewable systems.

 

Quote

the electricity that runs them will likely be generated by fosle fuels 

- Already more electrcity comes from renewables than fossil fuels (2020 data) and this will likely improve futher over time (see quote below)

- If you have fair amount of PV (or solar thermal) you can get free hot water in the summer with no need for a boiler or burning fossil fuels.

 

Quote

Generation from renewable sources has been increasing year on year and in 2020 exceeded the generation from fossil fuels for the first time in the published data series. Renewable sources generated 134.3 TWh in 2020, an increase of 11 per cent. In contrast, generation from fossil fuels was down 14 per cent to 120.5 TWh. T

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/972779/Energy_Trends_March_2021.pdf

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Dan F

[Nickfromwales]

So many architects are fossils......... Much better results can be obtained from an architectural technician. They ( typically ) have more curiosity and ingenuity, and less bravado and ego. A lot of them need to yank their arses into 2021, but why would they bother when a lot of clients are stuck in the 00's or earlier. Try selling someone more insulation and watch when they realise that eats into the budget for the coffee machine they'll use twice. 

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Try selling someone more insulation and watch when they realise that eats into the budget for the coffee machine they'll use twice. 

Or they will loose 10m² of floor area.

[nod]

I’m just looking through the local planning Three have been passed on a local farm All on oil Sap rating of 94 Though they have included PV which we avoided on our first build Partly because we hate the look of them and partly because they would never pay for themselves 

 

picture is from the final sap on our first build We were surprised that spending all that on solar panels would only add two points to the sap rating 

[MikeSharp01]

3 minutes ago, nod said:

We were surprised that spending all that on solar panels would only add two points to the sap rating

It must be the regs then allow people to NOT have have homes that impact the planet less. We almost had something like we needed in the 2016 regs that HMG deleted prior to them coming into force. On the plus (ish) side there is a new PART L coming and I found a good review of this and the associated new SAP scheme HERE which shows how much tougher it will be for the big house builders and the self builder. 

[ProDave]

The first job of the architect is to design a house that does not need very much energy to heat it.  That is the biggest contribution he can make to it being "green"

 

If you are having PV then an ASHP makes a lot of sense.  Oil of gas makes sense if it is a very large house or poorly insulated perhaps?

[nod]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The first job of the architect is to design a house that does not need very much energy to heat it.  That is the biggest contribution he can make to it being "green"

 

If you are having PV then an ASHP makes a lot of sense.  Oil of gas makes sense if it is a very large house or poorly insulated perhaps?  
 

Our first build is 284m2 over two floors (5bed} We are reliant on gas for heating 

But we far exceeded the sap requirements for insulation and airtightness The result is very low heating bills 

There no gas available for our next builds so that decision has been taken out of our hands We had decided on a heat pump But logic tells us that from an environmental point It seems to be window dressing Like solar If most of the electricity will be generated by fosil fuel While nuclear is now touted as clean Its not exactly green Or safe 
 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, nod said:

While nuclear is now touted as clean Its not exactly green Or safe 

Two points.

Clean in power generation means low CO₂.

Nuclear, even allowing for the whole supply chain, decommissioning and accidents, has a very good safety record when compared to coal and hydro.

[nod]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Two points.

Clean in power generation means low CO₂.

Nuclear, even allowing for the whole supply chain, decommissioning and accidents, has a very good safety record when compared to coal and hydro.

The main problem with nuclear isn’t the safety It’s the waste 

Surely we can’t just keep burying it 

 

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, nod said:

Surely we can’t just keep burying it 

If only were were burying it.

We have been storing 60+ years worths in tin cans plonked in swimming pools, usually next to a low lying coastline.

But they are guarded by men with guns.

[nod]

6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If only were were burying it.

We have been storing 60+ years worths in tin cans plonked in swimming pools, usually next to a low lying coastline.

But they are guarded by men with guns.

Like many things 

Not thought through long term 

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

Like many things 

Not thought through long term 

Yes, but it is a global problem.

We could bury it up in Cumbria, that has the right geology, Trouble is the council wants more cash from central government to host it.  All petty politics.

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

The first job of the architect is to design a house that does not need very much energy to heat it.  That is the biggest contribution he can make to it being "green"

 

I think we might need to tell the architects that. Out of about 6 architects including 1 architectural technician we spoke to only one emphasised energy consumption as integral to the design and one who said the design would be 'energy efficient' (I now know I should have asked him, compared to what?). Everyone else emphasised they'd give us an "award winning" house. We fell for the charm of the 'energy efficient' and he simply designed a timber frame with 89mm studs filled with some cellotex, and forgot about the EWI on the ground floor.

 

In another conversation I had with a younger and more recently qualified architect it was suggested that building technology is moving so fast they don't have the time to keep up with developments in insulation systems.

[PeterW]

15 minutes ago, SimonD said:

In another conversation I had with a younger and more recently qualified architect it was suggested that building technology is moving so fast they don't have the time to keep up with developments in insulation systems.

That is what CPD hours are for ..!! Keeping up with new developments and technology. It’s also borderline hot air and bo!!cks as the principles of insulation haven’t changed in decades. More insulation = less energy to heat / cool is the basis of thermodynamics that has been there since the 1970’s 

 

 

18 minutes ago, SimonD said:

he simply designed a timber frame with 89mm studs filled with some cellotex, and forgot about the EWI on the ground floor.

That doesn’t even meet building regulations ..!! Never mind be energy efficient ..!

 

The issue with a number of architects are they are crayon kings, and focus on the looks and aesthetic rather than the practical build scenario and the long term efficiency. We have a couple on here who do get it, but my overriding experience is that the “fabric first” learning is done on one wet Tuesday afternoon at university and forgotten thereafter .... 

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

but my overriding experience is that the “fabric first” learning is done on one wet Tuesday afternoon at university and forgotten thereafter .... 

I had to do a complete module on it as part of my BSc. And I was not studying building.

Basic physics works every time, you can't fool nature.

[SimonD]

On 18/04/2021 at 10:26, PeterW said:

That is what CPD hours are for ..!! Keeping up with new developments and technology. It’s also borderline hot air and bo!!cks as the principles of insulation haven’t changed in decades.

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

On 18/04/2021 at 10:26, PeterW said:

We have a couple on here who do get it, but my overriding experience is that the “fabric first” learning is done on one wet Tuesday afternoon at university and forgotten thereafter .... 

 

Sadly, that's something I'm beginning to believe now too. I've met quite a lot of architects since starting my self-build journey and I sometimes wonder whether fabric, barring how it looks, is even in their vocabulary. However, one architect I know locally who runs a medium sized practice explained they come across this and being medium sized, they're lucky enough to employ a mixture of those who like just the design and those who are technically oriented. This means they can mix the two to design things fully on project. Perhaps there is yet hope! ?