How to deal with difficult builder?

[ETC]

The builder will be laughing all the way to the bank with the delay......having said that if the works aren’t in accordance with the contract they should be removed and at no cost to you.....if a builder makes a mistake it’s his issue not yours and any costs associated with the delay should be met by him - not you.....

[Adsibob]

7 minutes ago, TonyT said:

 You should  have agreed daywork rates, extras, hired equipment /material mark up for this eventuality before the first day on site.

 
Then you just need to keep an eye on time and materials

 

Yes, in an ideal world I really should have. Next life, I will do this.  At least there is something that we can extrapolate from: All materials are priced separately and were QSed. And work for each line of a 70 line excel sheet was priced, so it should be fairly straightforward to extrapolate from that. But it’s now clear to me that this builder is not very straightforward, so who knows how he will price it. 

[Mr Punter]

Would sacking the builder kill you?  I would have let him go over the 120mm mistake or made him swallow all the costs for remedy and prolongation.

[ETC]

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

I’m going to stick up for the builder, as he will be criticised for being late delivering the project due to delays that are not his fault.

 

he will submit extra costs for the the delay due to having to hire in equipment for longer, site set up costs etc

you will be angry at this.

 

the engineers will submit an invoice for extra work for the invoice and get paid no hassle.

the architect will submit an invoice for extra work due to the underpinning and get paid no problem.

 

easy to see why the builder gets upset?

 

I’m going to be a bit controversial and go out on a limb and say nope to this T......the builder appears at fault....works not in accordance with the contract should be ripped out and made good at no cost to the client.....and any delay to any timescale project is his responsibility and his alone - and he should know this.

 

Foundations are notorious difficult to determine before works start and should be remeasurable based on rates - whether from a spreadsheet of from agreed rates.

 

Yes - the architect and engineer may ask for additional fees but I’d like to think that any professional worth his salt would be embarrassed to ask for much if he delays in getting the information to the client in a timely manner. There’s no excuse in this day and age for an underpinning detail to take several weeks to deliver.......

 

For what it’s worth - and if you are happy to accept any the mistakes he has made continue. If not move on but be wary of any contractual conditions in relation to contract determination.

 

 

[ETC]

14 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Would sacking the builder kill you?  I would have let him go over the 120mm mistake or made him swallow all the costs for remedy and prolongation.

Me too.....

[Adsibob]

11 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Would sacking the builder kill you?  I would have let him go over the 120mm mistake or made him swallow all the costs for remedy and prolongation.

Well it is tempting, but replacing a builder mid way is also not stress free. I’ve conceded 6cm of ceiling height and a bit of insulation, and basically come to terms with it. There will be a strip of my floor about 9m by 30cm which will have less insulation than the rest of the floor, but so be it - it is in an otherwise very well insulated part of the house, and will still have some insulation. After a lot of umming and arring I decided it was better to make these concessions than force the builder to swallow the cost of actually undoing and starting a major piece of structural work again. But that incident made me realise I can’t trust him to follow a diagram! Hence why I wanted him to go through the underpinnning diagrams with the engineer. Maybe I should have sacked him. But better the devil you know... right?

[Faz]

3 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

I have worked as a site manager, on several expensive new builds of £2 million +...... It's difficult. One the One hand you need to keep things moving along, and i'm telling you now, you can have all the drawings in the world (I've had over 400 for a 4000sq ft house). At  some point, on a practical level the drawings just won't work with the actual building taking place. The skill is the speed at getting it sorted quickly. Hold-ups cost money. I did Two houses in 2014. If i had had to refer back to the Client, Architect, Engineer everytime somebody waved a bit of paper at me, and said this don't work, I'd still bloody be there. I looked at a job for the Saudi Royal Family, and just at the quote stage i realised that every single time there was the slightest issue,it would have to be held untill the weekly site meeting, so that everybody could sit around and debate it. I knew that this would end up costing the client money, and me money. I'm not saying you are wrong, but wanting to discuss everything with the whole team, builder, architect, engineeer, interior designer, etc, etc, will be costing your builder money, because it's all a delay to his schedule. If he tells his guys not to come in for a few days, he still has to pay them. If he is organising any sub contractors, he will have to advise them that the site won't be ready for when he has them booked. There is then the risk that when he wants them they won't be available. From the sound of your post, you are having to get some underpining done. Get your engineer to get his butt to site pronto and talk it through with the builder. What is the architect going to bring to the party ? Another nice bill for you, that's all. builders build and engineers make sure it won't fall down. When your builder says to you, that detail, in that corner, don't work, but i can do it like this is that ok ? Be ready to make an instant decision, so that he can get on, and you can get your project finished. Listen, i'm not saying your builder is perfect. I'm just saying that it doubt it is all his fault

Spot on mate - the stuff you have to sort out on the ground (no matter how detailed your design) is what it is all about. Says the bloke who spent an hour bodging the splay bay posts to shape with an angle grinder today!

[Adsibob]

5 minutes ago, ETC said:

I’m going to be a bit controversial and go out on a limb and say nope to this T......the builder appears at fault....works not in accordance with the contract should be ripped out and made good at no cost to the client.....and any delay to any timescale project is his responsibility and his alone - and he should know this.

 

Foundations are notorious difficult to determine before works start and should be remeasurable based on rates - whether from a spreadsheet of from agreed rates.

 

Yes - the architect and engineer may ask for additional fees but I’d like to think that any professional worth his salt would be embarrassed to ask for much if he delays in getting the information to the client in a timely manner. There’s no excuse in this day and age for an underpinning detail to take several weeks to deliver.......

 

For what it’s worth - and if you are happy to accept any the mistakes he has made continue. If not move on but be wary of any contractual conditions in relation to contract determination.

 

 

Thanks for sticking up for me @ETC ! I thought I was going completely mad.

[ETC]

Just now, Adsibob said:

Thanks for sticking up for me @ETC ! I thought I was going completely mad.

Not mad.....I think you’ve been very patient.....a builder who did this on my watch would get his arse kicked and them some....I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - works that are not in accordance with the contract(ed) works should be removed at no cost to you. I would always use a contract to protect the client and the contractor in instances like this......do you have a written contract?

[Big Jimbo]

No, your not going mad Adsibob. You are just trying to get your building work done so that you can move on with your life, and you are finding the process stressful. That is understandable. Sometime however, you do need to take a step back. Your builder might be great or poor. A great guy, or a pain in the butt. But the people who i would be super pissed off with is the architect, and the engineer. Jeez, if you are going to do alterations to a building that is going to put more stress on the existing foundations, You check out if the existing foundations will be man enough to take the new stress and loadings. That really is basic stuff i'm afraid. If neither of them flagged that, then i would be putting both of their business cards in the filing cabinet in the "Shite, don't use again"  You should be sending a couple of right arsey emails to those two chancers.

[ETC]

1 minute ago, Big Jimbo said:

No, your not going mad Adsibob. You are just trying to get your building work done so that you can move on with your life, and you are finding the process stressful. That is understandable. Sometime however, you do need to take a step back. Your builder might be great or poor. A great guy, or a pain in the butt. But the people who i would be super pissed off with is the architect, and the engineer. Jeez, if you are going to do alterations to a building that is going to put more stress on the existing foundations, You check out if the existing foundations will be man enough to take the new stress and loadings. That really is basic stuff i'm afraid. If neither of them flagged that, then i would be putting both of their business cards in the filing cabinet in the "Shite, don't use again"  You should be sending a couple of right arsey emails to those two chancers.

Nah......trial holes on an existing house.....rather than hen’s teeth......contingency maybe - trail holes rarely......sorry Big J but this is a builder issue.....

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, ETC said:

Nah......trial holes on an existing house.....rather than hen’s teeth......contingency maybe - trail holes rarely......sorry Big J but this is a builder issue.....

Really ..? So you’d take a builder out of the picture rather than get the engineer to double check before he spends 4 weeks (!!) doing what are probably standard detail underpin drawings..? 
 

Can I ask @ETC are you in the trade at all ..? 

[ETC]

And in any case of the builder was genuinely delayed why would he give off.....? If a client causes a delay in a contract there are remedies available to a contractor....this includes delays in receiving information.....and a contractor would be within his (contractual) rights to submit a claim for damages....

[Big Jimbo]

2 minutes ago, ETC said:

Nah......trial holes on an existing house.....rather than hen’s teeth......contingency maybe - trail holes rarely......sorry Big J but this is a builder issue.....

So, it's the builders fault that nobody bothered to check that the existing footings could take the new loadings ? That's the best laugh i've had all night.

[Big Jimbo]

Etc. Your not a contracts manager by any chance are you ? People who have worked in the real world, on site, with tool, have all met plenty of them over the years.?

[TonyT]

And it took 4 weeks  for the structural engineer to come up with a shallow underpinning drawing ? after the extensive package the architect and engineer put together. 

[ETC]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Really ..? So you’d take a builder out of the picture rather than get the engineer to double check before he spends 4 weeks (!!) doing what are probably standard detail underpin drawings..? 
 

Can I ask @ETC are you in the trade at all ..? 

If a builder can’t follow simple drawings he shouldn’t be doing the job....plus he could always lift the phone and ask the engineer for a detail.....it’s not rocket science....and yes I’d get rid of any builder who can’t take simple instructions or who can’t read a drawing....if he doesn’t have the patience to wait and discuss a detail with a client or an engineer or an architect I’d determine the contract in a flash.....

[ETC]

No Jimbo - I’m not a PM - I work for a living and have had plenty of experience on sites and dealing with both contractors and design teams.....

 

I’ve also met plenty of armchair “experts” who wouldn’t know one end of a construction project from another....

[Big Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, TonyT said:

And it took 4 weeks  for the structural engineer to come up with a shallow underpinning drawing ? after the extensive package the architect and engineer put together. 

Yeah, but it took him that long because he is a top engineer, so obviously he is very, very busy....... Busy doing calculations for adding tons of extra loadings to some existing foundations without having a clue if they can take the additional loadings....You could'nt make it up.

[ETC]

6 minutes ago, TonyT said:

And it took 4 weeks  for the structural engineer to come up with a shallow underpinning drawing ? after the extensive package the architect and engineer put together. 

Not great T......should’ve been a couple hour’s work and an emailed PDF....doesn’t excuse the contractor from ignoring the clients request to delay starting the works without a site meeting though....if I was the contractor I’d have claimed for the delay....

[Gav_P]

It seems we have people arguing both extremes. But the reality is a lot of trades in the small building industry, whilst technically highly capable are not great at managing clients or following drawing... drawing are used as a guide, but not adhered to rigidly. 
 

Some are magnificent at overcoming issues or poor quality architects drawings... others just think they know better. 
 

My builder was great figuring it out and finding solutions to my crap drawing which I produced... they were terrible at managing change and cost. 

[Big Jimbo]

News flash...Etc has been appointed to run a major new infastructure project for the Gov. It's not quite finished yet. It's 22 years over the expected timeframe, and we are on the 782nd set of contractors, but it won't be long. Oh, and the budget. Yeah, we won't mention that.

[Gav_P]

Just now, Big Jimbo said:

News flash...Etc has been appointed to run a major new infastructure project for the Gov. It's not quite finished yet. It's 22 years over the expected timeframe, and we are on the 782nd set of contractors, but it won't be long. Oh, and the budget. Yeah, we won't mention that.

I think I worked on that one too ?

[Vijay]

My issue with having SE's drawings and not following them to a T is god forbid there was any issue down the line, who is going to take responsibility if the builder doesn't follow exactly what the SE has stipulated. The SE quite rightly will wash their hands of it and I doubt the builder will want to come back and fix any issues.  Looks like you have a big call to make................

[ETC]

2 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

It seems we have people arguing both extremes. But the reality is a lot of trades in the small building industry, whilst technically highly capable are not great at managing clients or following drawing... drawing are used as a guide, but not adhered to rigidly. 
 

Some are magnificent at overcoming issues or poor quality architects drawings... others just think they know better. 
 

My builder was great figuring it out and finding solutions to my crap drawing which I produced... they were terrible at managing change and cost. 

Let’s face it - there are good builders and not so good builders and there are good architects and not so good architects and it can be pot luck who you get and what level and type of service or build you get. It can be frustrating for all concerned especially a lay client who relies on the advice and guidance from the professionals he/she employs and from the builder who does the work.

 

I have met some very good contractors and I have met some not so good contractors and in most if not all instances differences on site were resolved amicably. It’s always the best way but if this isn’t possible it’s always better to start afresh.