Alternatives To An ASHP

[joe90]

What about the 4 million homes in the UK that don’t have mains gas?

[Dave Jones]

Where's my solution you are designing for a heat pump to provide limitless host water for less than £750 installed ?

 

I fully understand I'm preaching to the converted here, but for the rest of the market they are economically unviable. Just have to read the reams of people moving into a new build with one, they wife has a shower and there goes the hot water. Like being back in the 70's.

 

Fair enough the nice here for self builds where cost may not be the main factor they can be made to work but they are niche and once Worcester bo9che get their new boiler sorted will be the betamax to the VHS.

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Just now, joe90 said:

What about the 4 million homes in the UK that don’t have mains gas?

I could have had mains gas fitted back in 2005, was going to be £20k.

Divide that by 16 years, £1250/year.

So that is 3 times more than what I currently pay in electricity.

Not only do I get plentiful hot water, I get lighting, cooking, radio, clothes washing, IT services.

 

I wonder why we don't have gas lights any more, they should be the cheapest form of lighting.

[Dave Jones]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

What about the 4 million homes in the UK that don’t have mains gas?

 

again Joe, niche. You think they wouldnt have a combi if they could ? 

[Dave Jones]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

I could have had mains gas fitted back in 2005, was going to be £20k.

Divide that by 16 years, £1250/year.

So that is 3 times more than what I currently pay in electricity.

Not only do I get plentiful hot water, I get lighting, cooking, radio, clothes washing, IT services.

 

I wonder why we don't have gas lights any more, they should be the cheapest form of lighting.

ok ill bite. how many L of how water do you have on demand ?

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

limitless host water for less than £750 installed

Limitless, like it never, ever runs out?

 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

how many L of how water do you have on demand

200lt in this house.  I can also get a flow rate of 20lt/min if I want.

(I don't have an ASHP but the arithmetic is the same)

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by SteamyTea

[Dave Jones]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

200lt in this house.

(I don't have an ASHP but the arithmetic is the same)

 

do you have a race to get up early for the shower in the morning before its gone or do you have a weedy 2lpm caravan type showers !!

 

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Limitless, like it never, ever runs out?

 

 

that's how a combi works yes.

 

 

As joe highlighted there are places where its the least worst option but they are only ever an expensive poor cousin to a combi.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

do you have a race to get up early for the shower in the morning before its gone or do you have a weedy 2lpm caravan type showers

No, but I do live on my own, but 5 adults in neighbours house and they seem clean and tidy.

If I needed more hot water, I could fit a larger cylinder, cheaper than a new boiler.

Read my rely about the flow rate, it is enough to run two showers as it is, easy to fit another pump to run more, but I would be running out rooms to fit showers into.

 

How well does a combi boiler work in a power cut.  At least I have some stored hot water, definitely good for 2 days, probably 3.

 

The flow rate of most, cheap, combi boilers is pretty pitiful.  Had one in my old house and it took 15 minutes to fill the bath.

 

This is pretty pointless really, you do not understand, and cannot be bothered to learn the differences in the technology, you just have a very backwards view on heat pumps.

You assume they are low powered, only low temperature, are super expensive to buy and install, while any gas combi boiler has infinite capabilities, gives 100% reliable service, costs the same as a week in a Travel Lodge (do they use combi boilers in hotels?) and produce less pollution.

I am not going to change your mind, but I will pick you up every time you say 'they don't work' or similar, as that is just nonsense, and I have no tolerance of people that talk nonsense.

[Dave Jones]

For a single person I can see it would work for you. An immersion heater may well have been cheaper though.

 

Females on the the other hand would empty that little tank just washing their hair and wo betide when it runs cold......

 

They ARE expensive to install  by a factor of 10 minimum compared to a combi and provide none of the benefits. They only offer drawbacks.

 

If they were so brilliant then why is there a RHI scheme to subsidise them ?

 

You have a very narrow blinkered view, I'm looking at the larger picture.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

 

i agree at a cost. 

 

Design me a solution that does it cheaper than a combi.

I have said before, an ASHP will not beat the cost of a mains gas combi boiler. If you have mains gas available and are not bothered about CO2 emissions, stick with your combi.

 

In a well insulated modern house an ASHP is a good solution where mains gas is not available and you need to meet modern building regs / SAP for a new build and the ASHP will give you heating bills close to mains gas prices.

 

Re heat time of DHW is the only issue with hot water. That can be managed, though 5 consecutive baths would be a challenge.

 

I am not advocating anyone to rip out a gas combi from an old house and replace it with an ASHP as the results are likely to disappoint.  And this is what gives a heat pumps a bad name.

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

They ARE expensive to install  by a factor of 10 minimum compared to a combi and provide none of the benefits. They only offer drawbacks.

Really ..? 
 

300 litre UVC is change of £800. 8kW Heat Pump and all the toys change of £4k, so £5k all in. Full bore 3bar mains pressure and flow over 15l/min 

 

New WB Greenstar 8000 40kW has a flow rate of 14l/min is £1580 plus flue etc. 

 

So we have a rough factor of 3 difference. Not a minimum of 10...

 

Gas boiler needs annual service, cannot run on anything other than gas (ie you can’t feed it with PV etc) and they are being phased out and gas will only go up in price. 

 

3 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

You have a very narrow blinkered view, I'm looking at the larger picture.

 

Nope that’s you looking in a mirror if you think a combi boiler is the best solution to all problems. 
 

[Gav_P]

4 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

do you have a race to get up early for the shower in the morning before its gone or do you have a weedy 2lpm caravan type showers !!

I’ve got a 250L UVC and a 4kw ASHP... 3 of us use a shower (high flow waterfall showers)  every morning... and we don’t need to rush, my daughter can take 15-20 mins.

But if we have visitors (not happened in a year now tho) we need to leave an hour for it to warm up again. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I do miss the convenience of on demand gas or oil combi boiler.. but the low running and servicing costs does help.

[Matt60]

Jesus Christ fella's!! I only stepped away for a few hours!! ?

 

Thanks for the info on the render/plaster coat. I think this is what I'll do as well as a slurry coat between the floor joists - thanks.

 

Oh, I don't have access to gas I'm afraid.

 

I am happy to consider a ASHP, though I do have some reservations, but contrary to an earlier suggestion, I do want radiators upstairs and UFH downstairs. I know 2 professional house builders and both have said that upstairs, with a timber floor, the noise associated UFH expansion and retraction is not worth it. I saw in another thread on here somewhere some radiators that can be run with an ASHP that blow hot or cold which on the face of it looks almost too good to be true. I would like to use PV preferably using or storing all the energy from it and not exporting at all to the grid. This is why I was originally considering a Sunamp - stores energy and avoids buying a battery bank. I do like the idea of being able to cool, especially as it would probably be very cheap in the summer with the PV.

 

Either way, gas is not available and I'd just like ideas of alternatives that will provide plenty of heat without costing a fortune to run and not be too horrendous to purchase. I'm interested if anyone has good experiences with anything else, ASHP's are often the most obvious choice but I don't want to just assume it's the best solution open to me.

 

Thanks for all the input.

[Gav_P]

6 minutes ago, Matt60 said:

Either way, gas is not available and I'd just like ideas of alternatives that will provide plenty of heat without costing a fortune to run and not be too horrendous to purchase. I'm interested if anyone has good experiences with anything else, ASHP's are often the most obvious choice but I don't want to just assume it's the best solution open to me.

 

My house has UFH downstairs and radiators upstairs from an ASHP (albeit undersized for the job, but that’s another story). It works fine, even in the very cold spells. The challenge is the that the system is slow, so you need to plan ahead... I just keep the house at a constant 21.5*c but others here have some very smart systems which consider weather forecast etc

 

I’d happily have an ASHP again in my next project. 

[Matt60]

Just now, Gav_P said:

My house has UFH downstairs and radiators upstairs from an ASHP (albeit undersized for the job, but that’s another story). It works fine, even in the very cold spells. The challenge is the that the system is slow, so you need to plan ahead... I just keep the house at a constant 21.5*c but others here have some very smart systems which consider weather forecast etc

 

I’d happily have an ASHP again in my next project. 

 

Good to know - thanks! Do you mind me asking what you pay per month in electricity and if you have any PV?

[Gav_P]

3 minutes ago, Matt60 said:

 

Good to know - thanks! Do you mind me asking what you pay per month in electricity and if you have any PV?

No PV. Annual bill is about £1400. DHW is by immersion and cooker is electric... plus it seems every single electrical device in the house is left switched on permanently ?

[Gav_P]

Just now, Gav_P said:

No PV. Annual bill is about £1400. DHW is by immersion and cooker is electric... plus it seems every single electrical device in the house is left switched on permanently ?

Oh and to compare, oil used to be about £1000 a year. 

[Matt60]

4 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

No PV. Annual bill is about £1400. DHW is by immersion and cooker is electric... plus it seems every single electrical device in the house is left switched on permanently ?

 

4 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

Oh and to compare, oil used to be about £1000 a year. 

 

Thanks for that, very useful info. ?

[gc100]

Just looked at my ASHP and the how long it takes to heat up the hot water tank (300litres) but looking that this is seems about the same as when I had a gas boiler unless I’m looking at this wrong 

Edited March 1, 2021 by gc100

[Matt60]

22 hours ago, Matt60 said:

I don't have access to gas I'm afraid.

 

I am happy to consider a ASHP, though I do have some reservations, but contrary to an earlier suggestion, I do want radiators upstairs and UFH downstairs. I know 2 professional house builders and both have said that upstairs, with a timber floor, the noise associated UFH expansion and retraction is not worth it. I saw in another thread on here somewhere some radiators that can be run with an ASHP that blow hot or cold which on the face of it looks almost too good to be true. I would like to use PV preferably using or storing all the energy from it and not exporting at all to the grid. This is why I was originally considering a Sunamp - stores energy and avoids buying a battery bank. I do like the idea of being able to cool, especially as it would probably be very cheap in the summer with the PV.

 

Either way, gas is not available and I'd just like ideas of alternatives that will provide plenty of heat without costing a fortune to run and not be too horrendous to purchase. I'm interested if anyone has good experiences with anything else, ASHP's are often the most obvious choice but I don't want to just assume it's the best solution open to me.

 

Thanks for all the input.

 

Just re-posting the above as the thread went off at a tangent for a bit and I'm interested to see what alternatives people have used and would recommend. Ideally, I'd like 2/3 options to fully research and pick the bones out of. The heating and hot water is the issue that I'd must like to get decided on. Many thanks in advance.

[joe90]

If you don’t have access to mains gas then your alternatives are bottled gas, oil or electricity. Both oil and bottled gas are bad polluters, if going electric then a heat pump will give you up to 4 times the heat from 1 unit of electric. Regarding radiators with a heat pump they need to be bigger to cope with lower water temps. I don’t know about UFH upstairs being noisy, I am sure someone here will confirm/deny that (I have no heating upstairs apart from bathroom towel radiators and the house is warm enough).

[SteamyTea]

And E7 DHW system can be installed very cheaply.  Cost more to run, but very reliable.

 

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Matt60 said:

I'm interested to see what alternatives people have used and would recommend

So mine is an electric boiler and should be backed up by solar thermal. The solar thermal no longer works and no one wants to come and fix it, least of all the guy who installed it, so I’m down to using the electric boiler for both DHW and UFH. I use quite a bit of electric, around 12,000 kWh per year although probably a bit less than that currently as my PHEV car isn’t getting used anywhere near as much as before lockdown as I have been working from home for almost a year now. 
 

I have considered swapping to an ASHP but when I received 3 enormously different quotes from 3 MCS registered installers recently it makes me hugely nervous that I might pick the wrong one, and bemused that the quotes could be so different (they all had the same documents to quote from). I couldn’t afford the most expensive one as it was nearly 30k, and the cheapest of the 3 came out at about 12.5k but I was worried that the ASHP specified would be undersized plus there were bits and pieces I had to arrange myself which put me off as the chance of getting all trades to do what was needed in unison is pretty much zero here. 
 

If I went for an ASHP then I would have additional annual servicing costs to maintain the warranty so from a cost perspective any saving I might make on fuel costs would be eroded by that.

 

I only really need to fire up the boiler once a day currently as the floor temperature is maintained during the day mostly and it comes on again at about 5am which also provides DHW for showering in the morning. If I want more DHW it takes about half an hour to provide it which is useful. The thought of having to wait hours to provide DHW doesn’t appeal. 
 

My ideal solution with this set up would be to move to the Octopus Agile tariff and do all of the thermal store heating overnight when the rate is low. I’ve been on their list for a year so far though as they are apparently not yet providing smart meters for 3 phase set ups in this area as yet. I believe that I could save a significant amount if I were able to move to one of the cheap overnight tariffs as the lion’s share of my electricity costs are for DHW, UFH and car charging all of which can be set to overnight. 
 

So I’m not recommending my system but I believe that there are ways of using whatever system you have in the most cost effective way. For a cheap gas combi boiler the difference is probably negligible but when you are paying 11.5p for heating it concentrates the mind a bit. I only heat the rooms I use and the costs are manageable. 
 

If I had the option of mains gas I would have it in a heartbeat. Next door one side uses oil and the other side uses bottled gas and a wood burning stove. 

 
 

[Matt60]

Thanks all.

 

 @newhomeI think my concerns and attitudes would be much the same as yours in the same position. It's an interesting consideration as If I just when with emersion heater and electric boiler I would save thousands on installation costs and have a silent and fast system with no maintenance. I'm more open to this (probably coupled with PV and a battery bank) than you might imagine. If I spent out on panels and a battery bank, I reckon that would save about £600 a year and so I wonder how that would stack up cost wise to run each year.