Class Q issues

[Tobster]

We had applied for change of use under class q for 2 agricultural barns on our property and we were granted permission from the council.

 

Upon starting work we needed to take the foundations deeper as per the plans that had been submitted and so we have cut a 45cm perimeter around the original base and this 45cm perimeter has been taken down the level required for building control.

In order to do this safely we have taken down the barn and parts have been sent off for refurbishment whilst other parts are being replaced however we do have some of the original beams on site.  As far as we were aware this was allowed as in the info I have read online it states you can partially demolish if required.

A neighbour apparently called the council and asked them to investigate and they have since said as the barns have been completely demolished, including the concrete slabs on which they stood. As a result, it appears that the works can’t be carried out as ‘Permitted Development’ (Part 3 Class Q).  As you therefore no longer have a valid planning permission against which you may undertake construction I suggest you cease all works without delay. Please confirm when the works have ceased.

The highlighted note is incorrect as the concrete slabs on which the barns stood are still in place. We have added further concrete around the perimeter but the original concrete is still there.

Also  note that the barns had not been completely demolished when the council did the site visit the beams/trusses were in place, they had been temporarily moved in order to pour additional concrete around perimeter but then put back in place immediately.

 

Do we have any chance of appealing this to get the work back under way or is this now dead in the water?

Any advice from anyone who has been through similar would be appreciated.

[Tom]

Sorry to hear of your problems. The interpretation of Class Q seems to vary across the country so I would reckon the best bet would be to speak directly to the planning officer and perhaps arrange a site visit with them. I would also remove your neighbour from your Christmas card list.

[Jilly]

Suggest try and get something, anything back up asap? I have heard of this for conversions with full pp not just class Q. 

[Mr Punter]

Class Q is for conversion, not replacement.  If you have removed the barns you may be a bit stuffed.

[Tom]

1 hour ago, Tobster said:

  As far as we were aware this was allowed as in the info I have read online it states you can partially demolish if required.

 

 

...and in addition to what has already been said, I have always understood that you have been allowed to partially demolish, but not if the intent was to put this back up later i.e the structure remaining after demolition is what is being converted, and as such has to be capable of being so.

[Temp]

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of your problems.

 

Had you come here before starting work we would have advised extreme caution before demolishing anything as this sort of problem has happened before many times, even before Class Q was introduced. There has always been a big difference between a "conversion" and a "knock down and rebuild" in planning law/rules.

 

There is some guidance here on Class Q conversions..

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/when-is-permission-required

 

Quote

What works are permitted under the Class Q permitted development right for change of use from an agricultural building to residential use?

The right allows either the change of use (a), or the change of use together with reasonably necessary building operations (b). Building works are allowed under the right permitting agricultural buildings to change to residential use: Class Q of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015. However, the right assumes that the agricultural building is capable of functioning as a dwelling. The right permits building operations which are reasonably necessary to convert the building, which may include those which would affect the external appearance of the building and would otherwise require planning permission. This includes the installation or replacement of windows, doors, roofs, exterior walls, water, drainage, electricity, gas or other services to the extent reasonably necessary for the building to function as a dwelling house; and partial demolition to the extent reasonably necessary to carry out these building operations. It is not the intention of the permitted development right to allow rebuilding work which would go beyond what is reasonably necessary for the conversion of the building to residential use. Therefore it is only where the existing building is already suitable for conversion to residential use that the building would be considered to have the permitted development right.

For a discussion of the difference between conversions and rebuilding, see for instance the case of Hibbitt and another v Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) and Rushcliffe Borough Council (2) [2016] EWHC 2853 (Admin).

 

Internal works are not generally development. For the building to function as a dwelling it may be appropriate to undertake internal structural works, including to allow for a floor, the insertion of a mezzanine or upper floors within the overall residential floor space permitted, or internal walls, which are not prohibited by Class Q.

 

In other words if demolition is needed they deem the  building isn't "already suitable for conversion" so doesn't have permitted Development Rights under class Q.

The court case is here..

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2016/2853.html 

Quote

The Inspector disagreed. She held that in the context of the case in addition to (a) and (b) there was a further and more elementary requirement which was that for the development to amount to an automatically permitted "conversion" the nature and extent of the works entailed had to fall short of that constituting a "rebuild".

 

snip

It is not the intention of the permitted development right to include the construction of new structural elements for the building. Therefore it is only where the existing building is structurally strong enough to take the loading which comes from the external works to provide for residential use that the building would be considered to have the permitted development right."

snip

G. Conclusion

For all of the above reasons this application does not succeed. In my judgment the Inspector did not misdirect herself. Her analysis was correct.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Temp

[Temp]

2 hours ago, Tobster said:

Do we have any chance of appealing this to get the work back under way or is this now dead in the water?

 

If you don't comply and stop work at some point the council will issue an enforcement notice. When you get this don't panic. It will almost certainly give you time to respond. You can either appeal it or file a planning application or both. Either will normally delay any enforcement action until resolved.  

 

 

I suggest you seek advice from a local Planning Consultant asap. I doubt its worth appealing but they might/might not think it worth applying for retrospective permission to knock down and rebuild.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kxi]

@Tobster My advice as a fellow class Q'er is:

1 Put back as much of the original structure as you intended to re-use ASAP - but it sounds like you have done this already.

2 Stop all other work completely and notify the council as they have asked.

3 Document everything with extensive photos and collect all photos that you have. (Continuously)

4 Get legal planning advice. A planning consultant might be a start (you may have already used one to get the class Q?) but you may need something more serious like a lawyer with expertise in planning. We used Keystone Law for a tricky moment we had, who are Martin Goodall's firm (of http://planninglawblog.blogspot.com/ fame). This will for sure be expensive, but I suspect much less expensive than writing off your initial planning & conversion work or deciding to do something totally different. Of course there's no guarantee of success, but given that you didn't 'completely demolish' the agricultural building and never intended to, it sounds like all may not be lost.

 

A reasonable person should see there is in practical terms no ultimate difference between a) leaving the frame structure totally in situ the whole time, and b) temporarily moving bits of the frame then putting it back. The resulting building is exactly the same either way. The council will want to comply with the letter of the law, and have already shown somewhat in your favour by granting the 'permission' in the first place. I.e. they felt your application met the class Q criteria. If your red text above is an exact quote, it would seem the council are factually incorrect about the concrete slabs at least and as such can reasonably say they made an error based on bad information. The wording of that red text "as a result, it appears..." allows a clear walk-back of their position. 

 

Good luck. At least you now know by which neighbour's house you can position any future incinerator, manure heap, etc.

[JFDIY]

If you've got a slab to work off, get some scaffold up and put back as much as possible pronto, even if you have to support beams in fresh air on the scaffold.

 

I had a oak framed barn with permission for conversion that had been re-newed many times over 15years, eventually we made a 'significant start' elsewhere on site and another 5 years went by before I asked about what might happen if it fell down. The planning officer I spoke to said make sure it doesn't happen or you have nothing to convert. I asked how much I could take down at any one time, I was advised one element, which seemed unreasonable, but was suggesting one wall or the roof covering but not both at the same time.

 

I put in place rsj's internally with artic trailer 'landing legs' all set up to be able to take the weight off each wall one at a time if needed.

 

Then a neighbour had a massive extension/rebuild granted and I used this as precidence to get a planning submission for a rebuild , but I was prepared for the long haul.

 

Made taking it down easier and safer anyway.

[Gone West]

On 26/01/2021 at 15:08, Tobster said:

Any advice from anyone who has been through similar would be appreciated.

There have been several Class Q conversions around here. The farmers nearly always play the game and end up with a nearly new building. They never remove everything in one go, so I would put everything back that you possibly can as it was. This shows a conversion that ended up with a slate roof and white plastic windows, nothing like the drawings.

 

[Carrerahill]

On 26/01/2021 at 15:08, Tobster said:

We had applied for change of use under class q for 2 agricultural barns on our property and we were granted permission from the council.

 

Upon starting work we needed to take the foundations deeper as per the plans that had been submitted and so we have cut a 45cm perimeter around the original base and this 45cm perimeter has been taken down the level required for building control.

In order to do this safely we have taken down the barn and parts have been sent off for refurbishment whilst other parts are being replaced however we do have some of the original beams on site.  As far as we were aware this was allowed as in the info I have read online it states you can partially demolish if required.

A neighbour apparently called the council and asked them to investigate and they have since said as the barns have been completely demolished, including the concrete slabs on which they stood. As a result, it appears that the works can’t be carried out as ‘Permitted Development’ (Part 3 Class Q).  As you therefore no longer have a valid planning permission against which you may undertake construction I suggest you cease all works without delay. Please confirm when the works have ceased.

The highlighted note is incorrect as the concrete slabs on which the barns stood are still in place. We have added further concrete around the perimeter but the original concrete is still there.

Also  note that the barns had not been completely demolished when the council did the site visit the beams/trusses were in place, they had been temporarily moved in order to pour additional concrete around perimeter but then put back in place immediately.

 

Do we have any chance of appealing this to get the work back under way or is this now dead in the water?

Any advice from anyone who has been through similar would be appreciated.

I'd want a meeting on site with the planner. 

 

I'd also have as much of the barn lying around as I could, I'd also have photographic evidence of any parts that went away for refurb. If you can prove it is going to go back up as it stood, just cleaner and with new bits and strengthened etc. I don't see an issue frankly. 

 

I think you will appeal it, the issue is the council have been fed wrong information. Nice neighbour!

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Carrerahill

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

There have been several Class Q conversions around here. The farmers nearly always play the game and end up with a nearly new building. They never remove everything in one go, so I would put everything back that you possibly can as it was. This shows a conversion that ended up with a slate roof and white plastic windows, nothing like the drawings.

 

 

So they replaced every element, but it still retains the form and appearance of the original.  I guess it does look like a conversion.  Love the use of the pallets to hold up the roof.  Proper farmer!

[LSB]

We have just started our Class Q conversion.

It was made very clear to us not to remove anything that is considered part of the barn and therefore part of the conversion.

Our LPA removed planning from someone local who took their barn down to rebuild it using the same materials.

He was then refused any planning as it was considered a new house in the countryside, just using recycled material, they didn't care that they came from the same site.

This was spotted by a planning officer just driving by for something else completely rather than someone reporting them.

So, the best you can do is rebuild what you have, but don't do any new work and then talk to a planning consultant.

 

It does depend on where you are, but around here Class Q is not liked by the LPA so they are very strict, including the complete within 3 years rule.

Luckily that is just to make it habitable rather than completing everything, this is our saving grace as funds won't be available to do the whole inside within 3 years as we are doing DIY when we have the money.

 

 

[joe90]

On a cottage I had in Shropshire was an attached barn that the planners wanted halved in size as it was near a road (but been there for a 100 years), I jacked up the roof and rebuilt the walls, then took the roof off and rebuilt that. They tried to accuse me of demolition but I had photos to rebuff that ?.