Resubmission after dismissed Appeal - Help!

[Mrsmedhurst]

Hi All!

 

I am completely new to planning and build so am hoping you wonderful experienced people might be able to help!

I am helping my Mum with a class Q application to convert a block of stables that have been used for agricultural purposes into a dwelling and we are stuck on a technicality.

 

So far - Our first application was declined due to a lack of evidence to prove the buildings had been used for agricultural purposes, we resubmitted the application with further evidence which the council were satisfied with on that ground however the second application was declined on the councils view that the horses grazing on site amounted to equestrian use of the wider site. We submitted an appeal explaining why the horses on site amounted to agricultural as they are merely grazing which the inspector agreed with. Our appeal however was dismissed purely based on the fact we have not paid a mitigating sum for an environmental protection scheme now being operated by our council. Our difficulty is that the opportunity to pay the sum is not given despite our clear willingness to do so in all applications and the appeal. 

 

I contacted the local council and received the following reply - 

"We can advise that once an active applications is submitted, if the Council is minded to approve it then the relevant planning officer would be in contact with you regarding the completion of the relevant documentation."

 

So my question now is, can we resubmit our application with all the additional supporting information now an appeal has been dismissed? And if so how do we make it clear that we want to pay the mitigating sum? 

 

I hope this makes sense! Thanking you in advance!

[joe90]

I can’t answer your question (sorry) but I do know that equestrian does not usually count as agricultural (local friend is a parish councillor).

Edited January 12, 2021 by joe90

[Bramco]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I can’t answer your question (sorry) but I do know that equestrian does not usually count as agricultural (local friend is a parish councillor).

 

Indeed. Equestrian is agriculture in Europe but then ....

 

And that's not a Brexit comment it's gastronomical...

 

Simon

[Bramco]

On a more serious note...

 

Search the Web for similar applications and appeals.

 

We had to do this for our infill appeal in the green belt.

 

Your search should turn up some agents or solicitors who have handled cases like this. Give them a call - they'll be helpful - they'd like your business!!

 

If you can find someone out there that seems to have won a similar case and you think they are ok, then work out with them how they would go about winning an appeal for you.

 

And be patient - planning an appeals are marathons not sprints.

 

Simon

[Mr Punter]

Yes.  Submit the same scheme but include the offer to pay the environmental scheme money.  It sounds like you are pushing at an open door.

[Mrsmedhurst]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

I can’t answer your question (sorry) but I do know that equestrian does not usually count as agricultural (local friend is a parish councillor).

Thank you for your reply, we have argued this point successfully as the horses are solely grazing the field meaning their purpose is not equestrian but agricultural as per Section 336 of the Town & Country Planning Act 1990 which defines the land use as agriculture when used for grazing. Of course if the horse were ridden, driven or used for breeding their purpose would amount to equestrian. 

[Mrsmedhurst]

1 hour ago, Bramco said:

On a more serious note...

 

Search the Web for similar applications and appeals.

 

We had to do this for our infill appeal in the green belt.

 

Your search should turn up some agents or solicitors who have handled cases like this. Give them a call - they'll be helpful - they'd like your business!!

 

If you can find someone out there that seems to have won a similar case and you think they are ok, then work out with them how they would go about winning an appeal for you.

 

And be patient - planning an appeals are marathons not sprints.

 

Simon

Thank you Simon, that is helpful, I will have a search to see if there is anyone qualified who might help. I feel as we are so close we don’t want to trip up on a last point like this! 

[Mrsmedhurst]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Yes.  Submit the same scheme but include the offer to pay the environmental scheme money.  It sounds like you are pushing at an open door.

Thank you Mr Punter your reply gives me hope we’re close and on the right tracks! I was hoping someone would say it is possible to resubmit after an unsuccessful appeal so that’s helpful! 

[Ferdinand]

I take it the Appeal means you are now out of your "free second try on refusal" period?

 

(Is this still a thing @DevilDamo?)

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, Mrsmedhurst said:

...

Our appeal however was dismissed purely based on the fact we have not paid a mitigating sum for an environmental protection scheme now being operated by our council. Our difficulty is that the opportunity to pay the sum is not given despite our clear willingness to do so in all applications and the appeal. 

...

So my question now is, can we resubmit our application with all the additional supporting information now an appeal has been dismissed? And if so how do we make it clear that we want to pay the mitigating sum? 

...

 

Subject to your answer to Ferdi above, pick up the phone or bush telegraph or write and ask. The Council has a  duty to help you complete your application. The agenda for success has been set by the response given by the Council. ( Dressed up in horribly badly phrased plannerbabble I suspect).

 

What do you mean (above) when you say '... not given...'  Might you mean  '.... not made explicit...' , as in - here's a form, fill it in and attach a cheque?

[Ferdinand]

15 hours ago, Mrsmedhurst said:

Hi All!

 

I am completely new to planning and build so am hoping you wonderful experienced people might be able to help!

I am helping my Mum with a class Q application to convert a block of stables that have been used for agricultural purposes into a dwelling and we are stuck on a technicality.

 

So far - Our first application was declined due to a lack of evidence to prove the buildings had been used for agricultural purposes, we resubmitted the application with further evidence which the council were satisfied with on that ground however the second application was declined on the councils view that the horses grazing on site amounted to equestrian use of the wider site. We submitted an appeal explaining why the horses on site amounted to agricultural as they are merely grazing which the inspector agreed with. Our appeal however was dismissed purely based on the fact we have not paid a mitigating sum for an environmental protection scheme now being operated by our council. Our difficulty is that the opportunity to pay the sum is not given despite our clear willingness to do so in all applications and the appeal. 

 

I contacted the local council and received the following reply - 

"We can advise that once an active applications is submitted, if the Council is minded to approve it then the relevant planning officer would be in contact with you regarding the completion of the relevant documentation."

 

So my question now is, can we resubmit our application with all the additional supporting information now an appeal has been dismissed? And if so how do we make it clear that we want to pay the mitigating sum? 

 

I hope this makes sense! Thanking you in advance!

 

That last sounds like one thing that Sarah Beeny did albeit called "environmntal protction scheme"; they planted a few thousand trees under a Section 106 "Planning Obligation" agreement.

 

What it does is alter the perceived "harm/benefit" balance to change to application from "hmmm. no" to "hmmmm. yes" ie "make it acceptable in planning terms".

 

You need to take advice from the council as to what form that should take. It may be a Section 106, or a Unilateral Declaration (which is like a Section 106 but a binding proposal you make - can save time if you know what they want already), or a simple Deed,  or whatever they have set up for this scheme. Take brief advice from your solicitor.

 

We are all assuming that your Appeal established the principle that hosses were agricultural use, and that is now out of the picture. Obvs any new app will need to reference this

 

F

[Jilly]

My architect tried to get my stables through on Class Q  but it wasn't eligible and we had to withdraw it (partly because class Q means using the same entrance and we needed a new one) and make a full planning application. It was successful, however so don't give up hope, it doesn't mean you can't do things, just that you may have used the wrong process. Full planning involves more research and box ticking. Incidentally conversion of a building is a bigger complicated expensive faff than new build so while you are at it, research whether your council would allow demolition and rebuild. 

 

There was a Farmer's Weekly article by a farmer turned property advisor who advises other farmers on class Q but I can't find the reference. 

[ToughButterCup]

Talking about Class Q  ?: There's this fantastic resource you might like to consider.   (If for no other reason than the superb written style: clear, concise, focussed) 

[Temp]

17 hours ago, Mrsmedhurst said:

Our appeal however was dismissed purely based on the fact we have not paid a mitigating sum for an environmental protection scheme now being operated by our council.

 

I believe the inspector could not grant your application subject to a condition that you pay because of funny rules governing conditions.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

So my question now is, can we resubmit our application with all the additional supporting information now an appeal has been dismissed? And if so how do we make it clear that we want to pay the mitigating sum? 

 

These things are normally done by an S106 agreement which forms part of your planning application. I would reapply and mention in the covering letter that you anticipate the need to ammend the application to meet the policy (refer to it by its name) and request planning officer draft the necessary documentation. In addition to the Environmental  contribution you will probably have to pay your and their legal costs.

 

Try and get the s106 to be as specific as possible as to what they will use the money for. That way if they don't use it within 5 years (?) you can in theory get it back.

 

 

 

 

 

[DevilDamo]

13 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I take it the Appeal means you are now out of your "free second try on refusal" period?

 

(Is this still a thing @DevilDamo?)

Sorry. Is this a generic question or something relating to this thread as the OP here appears to have already used up their free go prior to the Appeal application?

[Mrsmedhurst]

On 13/01/2021 at 09:36, ToughButterCup said:

 

Subject to your answer to Ferdi above, pick up the phone or bush telegraph or write and ask. The Council has a  duty to help you complete your application. The agenda for success has been set by the response given by the Council. ( Dressed up in horribly badly phrased plannerbabble I suspect).

 

What do you mean (above) when you say '... not given...'  Might you mean  '.... not made explicit...' , as in - here's a form, fill it in and attach a cheque?

Thank you for your reply Buttercup, we have tried all methods of contacting the Council who are being clearly evasive. There seems to be the perfect cover of Covid currently for no one to answer a phone or answer an email or letter, sigh! Other local councils allow for a simple form to be filled out at the application stage to meet the stipulation so it is very frustrating. I think we will try the routes suggested here by a few of including an explicit offer to comply in the covering letter with the re application. 

[Mrsmedhurst]

22 hours ago, Temp said:

 

I believe the inspector could not grant your application subject to a condition that you pay because of funny rules governing conditions.

 

 

These things are normally done by an S106 agreement which forms part of your planning application. I would reapply and mention in the covering letter that you anticipate the need to ammend the application to meet the policy (refer to it by its name) and request planning officer draft the necessary documentation. In addition to the Environmental  contribution you will probably have to pay your and their legal costs.

 

Try and get the s106 to be as specific as possible as to what they will use the money for. That way if they don't use it within 5 years (?) you can in theory get it back.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply Temp, this is very helpful. I think this is definitely and perhaps our only option it seems. Your guidance to be as specific as possible is great, thank you! 

[Temp]

Is there anything in the Planning Policy that states how to comply? In some cases you can do mitigation on site by planting trees etc as an alternative to paying cash. Handy if you want to plant trees anyway.

 

[Mrsmedhurst]

On 14/01/2021 at 13:23, Temp said:

Is there anything in the Planning Policy that states how to comply? In some cases you can do mitigation on site by planting trees etc as an alternative to paying cash. Handy if you want to plant trees anyway.

 

It doesn’t seem to be one of the options sadly. Here’s the link for the supplementary planning document about the scheme - https://consultations.essex.gov.uk/place-services/the-essex-coast-rams-spd/supporting_documents/Essex%20Coast%20RAMS%20SPD_January%202020.pdf

 

It seems fairly simple until you try to find the documents needed to enter into the agreement. Unless we are missing something in the document? 
 

All we can hope is that as per the LPAs response to our query, should they be minded to approve our application they will provide the relevant documents for us to complete. And as suggested we can make it clear in our covering letter that we wish to do so. 

[Temp]

Only had a quick look and the alternative to paying is in section 5.2 but 5.1 says they prefer cash. However doing your own mitigation might end up costing more as you would probably have to pay Natural England or a recommended consultant to draw up a proposal and impact statement for you. 

[Temp]

7 hours ago, Mrsmedhurst said:

It seems fairly simple until you try to find the documents needed to enter into the agreement. Unless we are missing something in the document? 

 

I noticed that its a consultation document so might not yet be official policy. Appeal Inspectors are allowed to take such documents  into account.

 

However it may mean you are one of the first to go through it. I would start searching the database for other recent planning applications to see if you can find out what the going rate is. 

[Ferdinand]

On 13/01/2021 at 22:52, DevilDamo said:

Sorry. Is this a generic question or something relating to this thread as the OP here appears to have already used up their free go prior to the Appeal application?

 

Missed that bit.

 

It was a generic as I am not really acquainted with Free Go process, beyond that you get a second try with a little-changed project if refused.

[Ferdinand]

If the Environmental Scheme was not actually in operation at the time of Appeal it should imo not have been refused on that basis. But if that is the case it looks like a right battle to get that turned over.

And it is probably a better practical option to get the Council to accept a payment, as the other  arguments about planning principle and "where horses may safely graze" have now been won. If the payment is not prohibitive.

 

They must want the money, so they should know how they want it to work. Could you try asking the Officer or the Head of Planning directly, or getting your Councillor to do so. (Bear in mind possible elections in May in your area, which may distract councillor.)

 

Ferdinand

 

[Dave Jones]

On 12/01/2021 at 18:38, Mrsmedhurst said:

Hi All!

 

I am completely new to planning and build so am hoping you wonderful experienced people might be able to help!

I am helping my Mum with a class Q application to convert a block of stables that have been used for agricultural purposes into a dwelling and we are stuck on a technicality.

 

So far - Our first application was declined due to a lack of evidence to prove the buildings had been used for agricultural purposes, we resubmitted the application with further evidence which the council were satisfied with on that ground however the second application was declined on the councils view that the horses grazing on site amounted to equestrian use of the wider site. We submitted an appeal explaining why the horses on site amounted to agricultural as they are merely grazing which the inspector agreed with. Our appeal however was dismissed purely based on the fact we have not paid a mitigating sum for an environmental protection scheme now being operated by our council. Our difficulty is that the opportunity to pay the sum is not given despite our clear willingness to do so in all applications and the appeal. 

 

I contacted the local council and received the following reply - 

"We can advise that once an active applications is submitted, if the Council is minded to approve it then the relevant planning officer would be in contact with you regarding the completion of the relevant documentation."

 

So my question now is, can we resubmit our application with all the additional supporting information now an appeal has been dismissed? And if so how do we make it clear that we want to pay the mitigating sum? 

 

I hope this makes sense! Thanking you in advance!

 

stables and horses are not classed as agricultural in law.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

 

stables and horses are not classed as agricultural in law.

That’s not strictly correct, as it depends on the usage class of the land. 
 

If the land is used for grazing only - that is they are turned out and are not being exercised or fed additionally - then horses are classed the same as any other grazing animal. Any field shelters have to be moveable and not permanently sited. 
 

If you exercise the horses in the field, provide coats and covers or substantial additional feed then they are counted as recreational animals and the usage law changes. 
 

If you want to confuse the council even further, just stick a couple of sheep in the field with the horses and at that point it really muddies the water !!