Hi Lo sensor

[ash_scotland88]

Been deep into Google and looking for a way out...

Looking for a stand alone hi lo sensor. By this I mean something that will sense night fall, turn on at eg 20% then when it senses movement turns to 100%.

I know all in one lights exist, we have one. Found manuals from a company that no longer exist, websites that mention they sell them but can't find the listing and some-one on an other forum looking to build his own...

Our new house has a long 30m+ front garden including stairs, so will including multiple lights. My plan is to have it running dimmed dusk to dawn, and a PIR at each end so when the front door opens or someone comes off the street they'll come to full brightness with sufficient time to get to the end.

 

Any suggestions?

[ProDave]

Separate functions.  One set of dim lights on a dusk to dawn sensor, one set of brighter lights on PIR sensors.

 

I think with LED lamps now the norm and their low power consumption, the "need" for hi-lo lighting has largely gone.

[Roundtuit]

Not sure there's an easy way to achieve the 20% criteria easily, but someone electrical will surely be along shortly!  Maybe 2 circuits; one set of 'ambient lighting' on a stand-alone photocell sensor on all night,  then your brighter pir 'task lighting' on a stand-alone photocell/pir sensor?

[SteamyTea]

Two sets of light, why make life complicated.

[JFDIY]

I have one from 10yrs ago and wanted more, I cant find them anywhere. have scoped out an alternative though.

 

It's a photocell with built in timer which turns on a circuit with a dimmer 25% to provide a low level lighting.

 

Then a standard PIR to detect motion with the 100% output to the light, essentially over-ruling the dimmer

 

Like you I didn't want twice as many lights as necessary, or to struggle to find anything decent with twin bulbs.

 

 

I've done a mock up and all works as required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JFDIY]

This is the photocell with timer, sadly out of stock, but does fit a standard base do you can retro-fit any time.

 

https://lowenergysupermarket.com/product/photocell-timer-light-switch/

[Temp]

You could set up a regular Dusk Sensor to switch power to a dimmer. Then arrange a PIR sensor to bypass the dimmer. 

 

[ash_scotland88]

Really don't want two sets of lights, will need to install even more to achieve that, and I think would look pretty poor, like half/third of the lights are broken.

 

I think it will be a custom build job.

There's a while to go till move in so plenty of time to keep researching.

[ash_scotland88]

Found a solution.

Hypertronik HC019V http://www.hytronik.com/products/dual-photocell-microwave-motion-sensor-hc019v.html which can be synced together
Which will then be paired with a 24v dimmable driver eg https://www.bltdirect.com/osram-60w-optotronic-24-2v-programmable-led-driver
Along with 24v e27 dimmable lamps (and housing)

I was hoping I could run one 7core armoured cabled, but there's conflicting quick reading suggesting this is ok.
7 core=

L240v
N240v
E240v (not required)

L+ 24v
L- 24v

Sync cable.

Thoughts? Have I miss understood?

[Roundtuit]

Looks interesting.  Is there an outdoor version?

[ash_scotland88]

20 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Looks interesting.  Is there an outdoor version?

 

There's not but they do an IP65 box.
I think some models the sensor is on a cable, and other units can't sync to have multiple control points. Found the website a tad over complicated.

[TonyT]

looks complicated for outside lighting.......

[ash_scotland88]

@TonyT it may be but I think going low voltage with this all in one sensor may the best solution.

 

My hope is the garage (we didn't get to see inside of it when viewing the house) at street level has power than I can use to power the "gate sensor."

 

I company that sells in the UK has come back with the price of £25 per unit, which will be even cheaper than having to buy various seperate sensors doing quick head maths. Depending on cable requirments this is where costs may equal.

[ash_scotland88]

Got the sensors and covers today, the covers are bigger than expected!
I've been a bit lazy with ordering the LED driver and a LV lamp.

[ash_scotland88]

Finally got the parts of to test it and it works, as planned- got a bargain on a 48v dimmer from ebay.
Although only trying it with one sensor as I didn't want to purchase all the parts for both.

Is someone able to explain why the instructions say do not connect 1-10v of the drivers when their diagram shows the - connected?
http://www.hytronik.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Instruction-manual-for-HC019V.pdf

If it makes a difference I am only using driver.

Edited February 8, 2021 by ash_scotland88

[Carrerahill]

On 06/01/2021 at 19:08, ash_scotland88 said:

Been deep into Google and looking for a way out...

Looking for a stand alone hi lo sensor. By this I mean something that will sense night fall, turn on at eg 20% then when it senses movement turns to 100%.

I know all in one lights exist, we have one. Found manuals from a company that no longer exist, websites that mention they sell them but can't find the listing and some-one on an other forum looking to build his own...

Our new house has a long 30m+ front garden including stairs, so will including multiple lights. My plan is to have it running dimmed dusk to dawn, and a PIR at each end so when the front door opens or someone comes off the street they'll come to full brightness with sufficient time to get to the end.

 

Any suggestions?

This is a common function of lighting used commercially, usually you have a master unit which has the sensor then slave units that just take the signal from the master. The way they work is they use a driver with 2 inputs, give it 1 live, it outputs enough current to drive the fitting at 20% - give it the second live the driver ramps up to 100%.

 

So what I sometimes do is specify the slave units on their own, and create 2 switched lives, 1 live is driven via a photocell, so it gets dark and the fittings all come on at 20% - then wire in PIR's or Microwave sensors to switch the second live, so on detection of movement, the driver gets its second lie and ramps up to 100% - I also sometimes spec this so that the 20% is permanent and the 100% live is via a photocell for night only. Frankly you can do any combination. I've also had the first live on a photocell and manual switching for 100% so that 100% mode is only used when manually called for. 

 

There is also the option to use dimmable drivers with a controller or sensor that controls the fitting but that makes the whole thing more expensive and more complicated than it ought to be. 

 

The fittings I usually spec have Tridonic main drivers and a version of the Hytronik sensor you have got there.

 

As an example, this fitting will do exactly what you want out of the box and can be linked to others - I have used a master of these to control about 10 slaves around the perimeter of a golf club. 

 

https://asdlighting.com/products/clarity-portrait-cage/

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Carrerahill

[Carrerahill]

On 06/01/2021 at 19:27, ProDave said:

I think with LED lamps now the norm and their low power consumption, the "need" for hi-lo lighting has largely gone.

Quite the contrary, it is now more common because it is easier to achieve through 2 stage drivers. Most communal areas of shared housing, student halls, etc. use what is called Corridor Function, lighting sits at a setback level of about 20%, this is for compliance with CIBSE LG09 as it states 20lux through the night, but must ramp up to 100lux min if someone enters the space, the same is often used in stairwells too.

 

 

[Carrerahill]

27 minutes ago, ash_scotland88 said:

Finally got the parts of to test it and it works, as planned- got a bargain on a 48v dimmer from ebay.
Although only trying it with one sensor as I didn't want to purchase all the parts for both.

Is someone able to explain why the instructions say do not connect 1-10v of the drivers when their diagram shows the - connected?
http://www.hytronik.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Instruction-manual-for-HC019V.pdf

If it makes a difference I am only using driver.

Hytronik instructions are awful, they are usually quite misleading, however, to answer your question, look closely at the diagram, it is not showing them connected directly. 

 

You cannot have the two 1-10V control outputs on the same bus, they would fight against each other and I suspect damage each other. Essentially 1-10V lighting control is just that, a 1-10V "signal" - so to all intents and purposes what you have is a controlled 1-10V power supply - so putting them both on the same bus would cause them to probably fail - you must only use the "SYNC" link between the two and you link the negative side, but don't just wire the 1-10V in parallel.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Carrerahill

[ash_scotland88]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

Hytronik instructions are awful, they are usually quite misleading, however, to answer your question, look closely at the diagram, it is not showing them connected directly. 

 

You cannot have the two 1-10V control outputs on the same bus, they would fight against each other and I suspect damage each other. Essentially 1-10V lighting control is just that, a 1-10V "signal" - so to all intents and purposes what you have is a controlled 1-10V power supply - so putting them both on the same bus would cause them to probably fail - you must only use the "SYNC" link between the two and you link the negative side, but don't just wire the 1-10V in parallel.

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

So just to confirm when I have start using the other sensor:
Sync between the units
Link the negative too.

Wee bit disappointed that 10% dim isn't that dim, but that could be down to the driver or the LED lamp. I think I would even be happy with the lamp on 10% as the full power.

@carrerahill since you appear knowledgable is it possible to get a dimmer that takes the 1-10v "command" but is full 230v out? Trying to find 48V dimmable lamps have been a pain.

Edited February 8, 2021 by ash_scotland88

[Carrerahill]

15 hours ago, ash_scotland88 said:

Thanks,

 

So just to confirm when I have start using the other sensor:
Sync between the units
Link the negative too.

Wee bit disappointed that 10% dim isn't that dim, but that could be down to the driver or the LED lamp. I think I would even be happy with the lamp on 10% as the full power.

@carrerahill since you appear knowledgeable is it possible to get a dimmer that takes the 1-10v "command" but is full 230v out? Trying to find 48V dimmable lamps have been a pain.

Yes - so the negatives are all linked, then link the Sync between the modules which will pull them into sync and then run out your positives. You can actually just use the positives from one of the sensors to run all the drivers assuming you do not go over the limit of the sensor. The sensor might be limited to for example 10 ECG's (electronic control gears) because each connected gear acts like a load on the sensors signal transmitter, is might only be 20mA and if each device pulls about 1-2mA it can soon stop working. 

 

So you have your two Hytronik sensors, they generate the 1-10V signal, what does their signal actually control?

 

Where do the 48V lamps come in to play?

 

You can get DIN rail 1-10V mains dimmer modules usually called analogue AC interface modules, not as easily as you once could as 1-10V is not that common in lighting control anymore with DALI having taken over. There used to be one called the RAKO RAK4 but it was a 4 channel thing and about £500.00

 

There are lots of 1-10V low voltage and LED interfaces certainly but mains can be found too. 

 

Another option might be to use a Casambi CBU-ASD which is a wireless 1-10V and DALI interface module which you could use as your signal generator on a PIR trigger?