Maps used for Planning permission

[Dannytek]

Hi 
I have a question regards to maps used for planning applications.
I’m based up north and noticed planning gone in for an area near me, I looked at the maps for the proposed , but I noticed something very odd, the map was an official map used by ordinance survey etc but it has been photoshopped, they edited building locations, moved parcels of land, you wouldnt notice it by looking at it, but as I know the area and know the the man occupying some land near by, I noticed they moved the access points and road and moved one of his buildings, as a visual image of the proposed plan over its current state of the area, based on the ground and knowing boundary flats are next to his buildings and house, but they have edited his buildings and house to be further away.

can they do this or is it considered fraud or anything like that? 

 

Also on planning portals whats it mean when it’s said There is (a number) properties associated with this application?

Does that mean any other properties associated or?

[Ferdinand]

If it is as you say it is and maps have been falsified,  then it is dishonesty, and potentially fraud in that they will be attempting to obtain benefit from the Council whilst not paying appropriate fees.

 

If you want to question it, then I suggest writing it down carefully in bullet points to make sure you remember sit in the conversation, then a phone call to the Planning Officer, or going to the Council and asking for them to come out and explaining.

 

I would not recommend putting your name on any bits of paper you give to planning, as I have (for example) seen peoples names and emails preserved on comments on the public record or sent back to the applicant. If you are exposing someone's scam then you do not want that to happen. And emphasise confidentiality to whoever you talk to.

 

If you want to put a written thing in then I would go via Community Safety or Nuisance, as those departments will be more used to keeping things private.

 

One other route would be via a local Councillor, who will have a duty to respect confidentiality, and will make sure that Planning properly investigate.

 

Or I guess you could do a pseudonymous comment with a throwaway email.

 

One outcome you may get is that Planning will cross-check the maps against the real versions, and refuse to validate the application. They will probably not pursue a penalty for a fraudulent application themselves, and you would have to report a crime.

 

It is better that this is done quickly. You want your protest noted and in the system before Christmas ie next Monday or latest Tuesday. If it sits in an in tray over New Year it may not get attention. A planning app put in just as they are all going on holiday for a fortnight and thinking of turkeys, wine (and COVID this year) is a classic manoeuvre to try and smuggle something through without a proper examination.

F

 

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Dannytek said:

...

but it has been photoshopped, they edited building locations, moved parcels of land, you wouldnt notice it by looking at it, but as I know the area and know the the man occupying some land near by, I noticed they moved the access points and road and moved one of his buildings,

...

 

Is there any way of checking the date of the map they have used? It might well be - probably is - out of date. In which case  ........

Edited December 18, 2020 by ToughButterCup

[Dannytek]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

If it is as you say it is and maps have been falsified,  then it is dishonesty, and potentially fraud in that they will be attempting to obtain benefit from the Council whilst not paying appropriate fees.

 

If you want to question it, then I suggest writing it down carefully in bullet points to make sure you remember sit in the conversation, then a phone call to the Planning Officer, or going to the Council and asking for them to come out and explaining.

 

I would not recommend putting your name on any bits of paper you give to planning, as I have (for example) seen peoples names and emails preserved on comments on the public record or sent back to the applicant. If you are exposing someone's scam then you do not want that to happen. And emphasise confidentiality to whoever you talk to.

 

If you want to put a written thing in then I would go via Community Safety or Nuisance, as those departments will be more used to keeping things private.

 

One other route would be via a local Councillor, who will have a duty to respect confidentiality, and will make sure that Planning properly investigate.

 

Or I guess you could do a pseudonymous comment with a throwaway email.

 

One outcome you may get is that Planning will cross-check the maps against the real versions, and refuse to validate the application. They will probably not pursue a penalty for a fraudulent application themselves, and you would have to report a crime.

 

It is better that this is done quickly. You want your protest noted and in the system before Christmas ie next Monday or latest Tuesday. If it sits in an in tray over New Year it may not get attention. A planning app put in just as they are all going on holiday for a fortnight and thinking of turkeys, wine (and COVID this year) is a classic manoeuvre to try and smuggle something through without a proper examination.

F

 

Really appreciate this response.

 

Its clear it’s fraud in my opinion. Can it be something I raise with the police do you think? 
 

im trying to be careful with the information but I don’t trust the council one bit as it’s been discussed that they drew up the plans with the applicant together from meetings. So I’m really stumped.

[Dannytek]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Is there any way of checking the date of the map they have used? It might well be - probably is - out of date. In which case  ........

Hiya

 

We have obtained the exact map they used and we even paid a licence fee to get a copy from Getmapping who do the imagery for Google, land registry etc, 

the map is from 2020.

 

we asked for copy map end of last , and just received, we have until 27th for our comments

 

the planning application was validate within minutes of receiving also, dunno if that helps

 

[epsilonGreedy]

14 minutes ago, Dannytek said:

I'm trying to be careful with the information but I don’t trust the council one bit as it’s been discussed that they drew up the plans with the applicant together from meetings. So I’m really stumped.

 

 

You need to be careful alleging that, your tactic should be to reveal to the planning office that they are being deceived by false information and not allege they are willing conspirators in criminal activity.

 

The planners might have offered pre application advice but was this based on bad information?

[PeterW]

Send the map you have received and the map you have obtained correctly with a note to the Council Solicitor by recorded delivery stating you believe a fraudulent application has been made but due to the sensitivity of the subject you do not wish your name to be made public nor communicated to the planning department. 
 

They have a legal duty of care to then respond and investigate - they also cannot divulge your details as the legal department in a council is accountable for privacy and data protection.  
 

Good luck ..!!

[Bramco]

12 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

You need to be careful alleging that, your tactic should be to reveal to the planning office that they are being deceived by false information and not allege they are willing conspirators in criminal activity.

The part of planning that validate applications have little or no time or on the ground local knowledge unless they happen to live round the corner and even then... I'm sure they take a site location plan as gospel unless someone local complains. 

 

So the onus is on you or neighbours to point this out.  Probably called democracy but ....

 

Local councillors can be really helpful with this kind of thing, except maybe they're thick as thieves with the perpetrator - it is the time of backhanders.

 

As @PeterW said the council solicitors are on the hook if it's wrong. So an anonymous email/letter should work.  From experience don't bother calling the case officer....

 

Simon

[DevilDamo]

4 hours ago, Dannytek said:

Also on planning portals whats it mean when it’s said There is (a number) properties associated with this application?

Does that mean any other properties associated or?

It means the application does not solely relate to one property but a number of properties either in the same or different ownership. If any of the properties are not in the name of the applicant, then Certificate B would have needed to have been submitted.

[ToughButterCup]

Take very great care before alleging fraud. Be  certain of the facts. Build an unchallengable evidence base.

[LSB]

did the planning app go before the parish council, as all parish councillors are local they could probably understand if the map is wrong.

if they yet have to look at it (they have 3 weeks) then ask to attend the meeting, as all public can do any time, and when they review the application you will be allowed to comment.  If they can understand what you are saying then they must and will say something in their response.

Unfortunately, not all parish councils look at planning apps.

I am on our parish council and we look at every single one, but I know lots don't.

 

[Ferdinand]

The suggestion to go to the Legal Dept is a very good one; I think  conversation will be privileged.

 

I think you have the basics from us now, so move on to your decision and doing it, and do not get drawn into circles about tinny detail.

[joe90]

Having dealt with planners in the past ? I would do as @PeterW says above and send copies to their solicitors via recorded delivery and keep copies.

[Gav_P]

If it’s an OS map that you think has been edited, might be worth letting OS know. They are very protective of their assets. 

[Dannytek]

1 hour ago, LSB said:

did the planning app go before the parish council, as all parish councillors are local they could probably understand if the map is wrong.

if they yet have to look at it (they have 3 weeks) then ask to attend the meeting, as all public can do any time, and when they review the application you will be allowed to comment.  If they can understand what you are saying then they must and will say something in their response.

Unfortunately, not all parish councils look at planning apps.

I am on our parish council and we look at every single one, but I know lots don't.

 

Planning has gone in, it was validated as soon as submitted.

 

there has been absolutely no consultations? When does this usually take place? We have asked but the council seem to refuse to answer this question.

 

I have no clue as to parish, when do people in council start looking at these documents?

[PeterW]

Validation is just that it has all the correct paperwork. 
 

Once validate they have 8 weeks in law to make a decision, but will need to send or post out details within a week or two of validation giving consultees 21 days to respond. 
 

Is it directly neighbouring onto you ..??

[Dannytek]

4 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

It means the application does not solely relate to one property but a number of properties either in the same or different ownership. If any of the properties are not in the name of the applicant, then Certificate B would have needed to have been submitted.

How can I discover which certificate an application is?

 

regards to number of property’s, there are at least 20 parcels I’d say, and 3-4 owners and working together.

 

assume they are in partnership with agreements, but if jointly working together does that make them all jointly liable if any thing bad represented?

 

[Dannytek]

Only just received the letter but saw the application a while ago, letter is majorly back dated and have like 7 days to put in comments.

 

is the comments considered the consultation? I thought consultations was meeting with council to discuss the plans?

[PeterW]

The application form on the council website will show you who has applied. 

[Dannytek]

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Validation is just that it has all the correct paperwork. 
 

Once validate they have 8 weeks in law to make a decision, but will need to send or post out details within a week or two of validation giving consultees 21 days to respond. 
 

Is it directly neighbouring onto you ..??

Forgot to quote you in response above.

 

I’m very new to all this lark btw but just notice a lot of things are wrong but appreciate all the kindness so far.

 

yea me and 4 neighbors are adjoining at some part of the plan.

 

you mention validation is when they receive the right paper work but most supporting documents were not added for couple weeks. Is that normal?

 

can they amend documents or?

 

one neighbor basically has flats next to his house, which I think is very intimidating as flats only appear near us 4 remaining properties 

[Dannytek]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

The application form on the council website will show you who has applied. 

So look at the application form and it should give a category? Is that right

[PeterW]

Ok so if stuff hasn’t been done “correctly” then the LA Ombudsman can get involved. Keep screenshots of the planning portal. 

Application form will give all details. 

 

[Dannytek]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok so if stuff hasn’t been done “correctly” then the LA Ombudsman can get involved. Keep screenshots of the planning portal. 

Application form will give all details. 

 

looked at the application, no reference to a category a b c d etc

 

the names of the applicants are 2 instead of 4 companies, so I’m guessing that makes them partners and I’m guessing they jointly responsible for all documents.

 

are there key things to look out as to what hasn’t been done? For an ombudsman to get involved?

 

is there meant to be a council consultation then in public? To discuss directly?

 

comments to planning surely isn’t consultation is it?

 

At what stage would this then goto a commitee or could they pass it without one

[PeterW]

The consultation has started. It’s up to people to comment, and based on that it may go to committee depending on the scale etc. 
 

From the sounds of it this is a big development and it sounds like you’re not happy along with others. I would formally get your issues down in writing (especially the map issue but via the legal route) and also canvass neighbours and the councillors. Local papers are also good for drumming up support. 

[Dannytek]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

The consultation has started. It’s up to people to comment, and based on that it may go to committee depending on the scale etc. 
 

From the sounds of it this is a big development and it sounds like you’re not happy along with others. I would formally get your issues down in writing (especially the map issue but via the legal route) and also canvass neighbours and the councillors. Local papers are also good for drumming up support. 

Ohhhh the comments is the consultation! We were told ages ago by the planning and council that there would be a formal meeting for consultations and a inspector.... but none of that has happened.