Technoheckno Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Hi, I've got plans submitted for a passive house design two storeys, two bedroom, ground floor built into the bankside on three sides, South facing. Ground floor will be just a single garage, hall, st5airs to upper and a 'music' room. As my previous building experience(over 40 years ago) didn't include plumbing and heating I've no knowledge or experience of air source heat pumps(or many of the other innovations that have come along. Basically I want to know whether air source heat pumps are noisy, do they have to be sited on a house wall and do they alter the air temperature around their inputs? Are they suitable for domestic hot water and heating? Can they be used to cool as well as to heat? Glad of any help relating to these questions. Builder to whom I've been speaking has experience of ground source heating installation but doesn't know anything about air source, and as I don't really fancy having the ground full of pipes, I'd like to find out about air source. Architect has indicated that there should be an MHVR unit but hasn't specified heating or hot water sources. Thanks Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Are they Noisy? That depends on your definition of noisy. I would say they make about the same level of noise as the roar of an oil fired boiler, the difference is most of the noise is outside unlike most oil boilers that are inside. You will need to take care with the install that noise does not get transmitted into the house via the pipes, by using a flexible section of pipe on the flow and return pipes. Normally they stand on the ground, but can be wall mounted. Most can do cooling as well as heating but you may need extra stuff inside like a fan coil unit for use when in cooling mode. Yes they heat somestic hot water. But they don't work so well at high temperatures so several of us on here just heat the DHW to 48 degrees and use a larger hot water cylinder as it will get less dilution in use than it would if it was stored at a hotter temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I’m putting in ASHP for my house for heating & water. I’m no expert and plenty here will advise better than I. The exterior ASHP sounds like a Fridge/freezer. I located my ASHP away from bedroom / living windows and have triple glazing which will help but bear in mind in summer if your windows are open the ASHP will still need to run for your hot water etc. i would avoid locating the ASHP near any bedroom or living room windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technoheckno Posted October 20, 2020 Author Share Posted October 20, 2020 Thanks very much for the information and advice. I'd like to be able to use the downstairs music room to record our band, hence my concerns regarding noise and my interest in a system that can handle cooling as well as heating, as a bunch of musicians and amplifiers can raise the temperature quite a bit :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 (edited) We have ours placed outside our living room which i would not recommend. Installed with flexi hoses but still getting alot of 'mechanical' noise transferred into the room from the water pump and compressor. Its almost noisier inside the room than outside the house. The heat pump is only used for space heating. Acoustic Enclosures exist too Edited November 26, 2020 by Jymmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Jymmm said: Installed with flexi hoses but still getting alot of 'mechanical' noise transferred into the room from the water pump and compressor Are the flexible pipes long enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 21 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Are the flexible pipes long enough? I'd have to check, is there any rule of thumb with the length? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jymmm said: I'd have to check, is there any rule of thumb with the length? At least a metre, and not taught I think. Some hp manufacturers specify the length. Edited November 26, 2020 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav_P Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Mine is wall mounted and it definitely transfers noise into the house through the wall... To eliminate this, I intend to move it to a few meters away from the house. Also regarding what kind of noise, it’s a deep droning sound, but is only really audible when the fan is at full speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 On 20/10/2020 at 16:58, Technoheckno said: Basically I want to know whether air source heat pumps are noisy, do they have to be sited on a house wall and do they alter the air temperature around their inputs? Are they suitable for domestic hot water and heating? Can they be used to cool as well as to heat? No, no, yes, yes, yes, some can.... or in detail ... Noise - no worse than an oil boiler if it is a monoblock (ie all outside) and you site it so it’s not facing a window. Decent wall thickness tends to drown out sound anyway, and flexi loops in the pipes stop transference of noise via the pipework Siting - can be sited anywhere, usually ground mounted near the house as insulated underground pipe is expensive. Can be wall mounted but not usual. Airflow - they remove the heat from the air around the fan coil unit outside so can have a localised cooling effect on the air, and the fans shift a lot of air too. DHW - yes to about 50°C unless they are a high heat unit that can go to 60°C but this is easily sorted using an unvented cylinder with an immersion to boost the tank on E7. Heating - ideally tied to UFH in a decent slab thickness to act as a heat store at low flow temps Cooling - some can cool however in the U.K. it is normally disabled in the firmware as a large majority of units have been fitted under MCS / RHI rules and this doesn’t allow for cooling unless a heat meter is fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav_P Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 16 minutes ago, PeterW said: Noise - no worse than an oil boiler if it is a monoblock (ie all outside) and you site it so it’s not facing a window. Decent wall thickness tends to drown out sound anyway, and flexi loops in the pipes stop transference of noise via the pipework This isn’t my experience. My walls are just over 2ft thick and the noise can be heard inside... although I put this down to it being wall mounted rather than floor mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 23 minutes ago, Gav_P said: This isn’t my experience. My walls are just over 2ft thick and the noise can be heard inside... although I put this down to it being wall mounted rather than floor mounted. think that will be more down to wall mounting than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 (edited) mines sat about 50cm away from the wall (100mm stone, 100mm insulation, 100mm block, dot & dat 12mm) its the reverberating sound from the water pump that's heard mostly which isn't great. Yet the water pump is hardly noticeable outside. Edited November 26, 2020 by Jymmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Look at R290 based heat pumped for heating water directly. They will produce 75*C from the compressor alone. As to noise, there are now planning requirements in this respect. However, the latest units are exempt as they are below the thresholds even when right on a boundary. When heating, the outdoor unit will be cooling so yes, it will be cold standing in front of it and may make paths more susceptible to icing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, J1mbo said: Look at R290 based heat pumped for heating water directly. They will produce 75*C from the compressor alone. Assume you’re referring to the Vaillant aroTherm Plus that has a pretty good range however they do lay it on a bit with the CO2 impact on losing the refrigerant to the atmosphere ..! Also forget to tell you R290 is highly flammable propane and it has a limited performance range of 0-20°C so can’t get above 60°C when the outside temperature is above 25°C. Vaillant seem to push these through their installer network - I requested the BIM files and got sent a pdf flyer and was called by an Installer instead ...! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 9 hours ago, PeterW said: think that will be more down to wall mounting than anything else. mine is floor mounted just outside the house wall and virtually no noise can be heard indoors, In the cloakroom (where the plant room/cupboard is) you can just hear the pump when it’s running but no where else in the house. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 how long are your flow and return lines between the pump and the house? Mine is actually quieter outside than it is in the room it's attached to so something isn't correct in my installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 A previous member here (Jeremy) thought long flexible hoses were a waste so installed short ones and he suffered noise in the house, he replaced them with long ones (as specified in the MI,s) and the noise went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 My flexi is approx 30cm and looks like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 If I remember correctly Jeremy used 300mm flexes and had noise problems, he replaced them with much longer ones, in a loop, as per the MI,s and the noise almost disappeared. Shame he is not here anymore to confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 What do you mean by ‘MI,s’? Thanks for your info - I think I definitely need to try longer flexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taff Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 23 minutes ago, joe90 said: If I remember correctly Jeremy used 300mm flexes and had noise problems, he replaced them with much longer ones, in a loop, as per the MI,s and the noise almost disappeared. Shame he is not here anymore to confirm. where did Jeremy go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Just now, Taff said: where did Jeremy go? Nobody knows, (and we have tried to find out), his web site has also disappeared but it did have an EU domain which might explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taff Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 well he's a proper big miss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 16 minutes ago, Taff said: well he's a proper big miss Most definitely, If only he knew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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