Hiring a PM for a selfbuild?

[Balraj Appadu]

I am thinking of hiring a PM for my build near Cambridge

we have decided to go with package companies: one company for groundwork’s and slab, a timber frame company to supply a weathertight shell with windows and external doors

then hire a PM to do the rest with subcontractors? Good idea?

we are also looking into having one company to do heating, home automation and electrics if such a company exists!

thank you for your ideas

 

[Redoctober]

Hi @Balraj Appadu I don't know your circumstances in as much as will you be working full time whilst the build is underway? What is the build budget? How complex is the build itself? All these matters will have an impact upon your decision.

 

The route you are taking seems very similar to the one we took and I managed the project myself, without any prior experiences. That said, I was able to be on site most days etc. You have the main elements covered - all it seems you need to do is co-ordinate the add on trades. This is something you should be able to do yourself. 

 

Hiring a PM can be expensive and generally, on a "standard" self build, unnecessary in my opinion. 

 

Take a look at my blog as this might help you in understanding what is needed to be done etc.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Redoctober
additional info

[Water]

I would but then I don't have the time or as much experience as a PM.

[Dan F]

Be careful because some project managers can cost you more than you save using a main contractor.  It might be worth trying to find a main contractor that is flexible, allows you to bring your own contractor. Some will even work open-book..

[Vijay]

This is just my own personal opinion but a PM is never gonna care as much about your project as you and they are never gonna find the cheapest deals. On a self build near mine, the PM never went to site and was shocked when he was fired - after the floor went in at wrong levels and he expected the customer to pay for it to be put right!

 

As Dan Fest said, a good main contractor will more than likely know other trades that he/she uses and knows their work.

 

Out of interest, have you had a price for a PM?

[Dan F]

One PM we spoke to wanted 7% of the whole build. A main contractor we spoke to wanted 10%, but happy to start post-frame and exclude groundworks, foundations, timber-frame and also the kitchen.  On that basis PM would be both more expensive, less present and not have their own employees or regaular subbies.  Just something to thnk about, as we initially assumed we'd save money with a project manager..

 

[gc100]

I looked into this, but quickly dismissed the idea. PM will never be motivated to save you money as their fee is calculated on build cost at least the ones I spoke to. I never found one who worked on a per/hour rate.

 

If budget is a concern then as much as you might not want to, you might be better off doing it yourself...

 

[Bored Shopper]

From experience, a PM helps if you are a total newbie and have no clue, and need a ramp-up period with the build for it all to start making sense. And if you work full time, are easily intimidated and do not wish to be present on site. With us it worked well for 3 months, PM was a great help. But then things went pearshaped with our builders, PM could not do anything about it, DH took matters in his own hands (he's retired so plenty of time on his hands) and effectively started PMing himself. This is much more effective as  he is present now on site daily and makes it hard for builders to cut corners. He is there just in time to discuss minor tweaks / answer questions / check sensibility of some decisions (as was very cleverly put by some of this Forum's gurus, "someone else's common sense is not your common sense!!"). Direct communication and oversight definitely helps, as due to lack of such control under the PM (he visited weekly) we've had lots of things done wrong.

 

That said, DH is now a full-time PM on our project, dealing with both site visits, procurement and overall coordination. From early morning to late at night, 6 days a week. I work full time, and could not have possibly done that working as I do. I do manage finances and budgets, but that's it. When our site manager calls with "can you pop round here for a moment?.." it's DH who takes off.

 

But I do acknowledge PM did help with PP, LA applications, some general knowledge of how builds are done, double-checking engineering opinions etc. But you can't rely on a PM 100% to deliver you exactly what you want and at very good value. (Maybe there are such gems, have not yet met them).

[Bitpipe]

I commissioned a PM very early on in our project  - he was recommended by a potential contractor when we were going down the iCF route.

 

Decent bloke and knew his stuff, we paid him £1500 to do a detailed cost plan for both ICF and timber frame options plus a PHPP analysis. This was before we'd discovered this forum's predecessor.

 

He also wanted a % of build cost (thinkand his QS cost projections were at the high end, but thorough. His rational was that he'd 'save' us the cost of his fee through efficient management of the budget.

 

At that point I'd decided to go the TF route and gained enough confidence to PM it myself as the two main works packages (demolition/ basement & timber frame) got me to a fairly advanced stage and it was easy enough to schedule windows, roofing and render while the scaff was up to get weathertight.

 

First fix followed that (already had an electrician on standby) and was not that hard to schedule the finishing trades thereafter. Only work I did myself was MVHR installation and general tidying up really.

 

I consider the money we spent on the PM for that initial planning aspect worthwhile as it gave me confidence and structure to move forward - no doubt I could have got both bits a good deal cheaper if I'd known which way was up at that point

 

A decent QS derived cost plan is essential as you can then use it to benchmark against quotes, track savings and make decisions on over / under spending.

 

I reckon we came in 15-20% under the original plan without changing the spec. 

[Balraj Appadu]

Thank you all for your comments

i have decided to do the PM and save me some cash

[puntloos]

Bit late to the discussion but hey.

 

I'm a bit confused, I am actually still debating getting a 'PM-QS' - basically a QS who will also handle PMing. And I'd say caring about quality vs cost is deeply core to their job. If they fail at that they fail at their job and reviews etc should reflect that - I'd grant that it might be harder to 'hit them where it hurts' (is there some way to take failure out of their pay? Or can I just leave a crabby review somewhere..) 

 

But all in all I don't have the time to be onsite daily so 'someone has to do it' in my view.

 

 

[Bored Shopper]

13 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Bit late to the discussion but hey.

 

I'm a bit confused, I am actually still debating getting a 'PM-QS' - basically a QS who will also handle PMing. And I'd say caring about quality vs cost is deeply core to their job. If they fail at that they fail at their job and reviews etc should reflect that - I'd grant that it might be harder to 'hit them where it hurts' (is there some way to take failure out of their pay? Or can I just leave a crabby review somewhere..) 

+1 to combine PM with QS. Our PM was not too much costs-focused. He did offer some discounts with certain suppliers but at a closer look thier prices were exorbitant even with a discount. Had to do all the research and QSing ourselves, so not 100% cost-efficient.

[Sarah A]

We are also debating having a PM for part of our self build as we both work full time and can't be on-site every day. Has anyone else in here PMd a project while working? 

[Bored Shopper]

My husband and I are PM'ing 50%/50%. Husband (retired) does site visits and daily errands around shops etc, is the main liaison with the builders, manages neighbours, scaffolders, skip hires, Solar PV and doors installers, as well as all services connections. For him this is a full time job. I work full time and in terms of the project am responsible for the budget, mortgage, procurement costs, financial reporting, VAT return, half of all purchasing research, council, paperwork, weekly minutes, agendas, core correspondence, archive, and interior design (kitchen design, bathroom design, lighting concept etc). Luckily have been working from home since early March, otherwise no idea how I'd manage. 

 

Tough, but doable with very good time management skills and a clear vision.

Ah, and we don't have small kids around (a senior teen, so not too time consuming).

[Weebles]

39 minutes ago, Sarah A said:

We are also debating having a PM for part of our self build as we both work full time and can't be on-site every day. Has anyone else in here PMd a project while working? 

 

We have PM'd our self build (still not quite finished) whilst working full time and with a 12 and 14 year old (at the start).  It has been incredibly tough but very rewarding. 

If it helps, here is what our situation was:

We lived on site in a caravan.  I imagine it would be trickier to live off site if you are trying to work full time too.  You want to see your site most days.

Husband worked from home 3 days a week for the whole 2 year period.

I worked locally and could nip home if needed to make decisions / look at something / make a cup of tea for someone let onto site in the morning / check in with a sub-contractor - essential if husband was away at work that day.

We did (and are still doing) quite a few things ourselves, saving quite alot of cash, getting the quality we wanted.

We have been lucky with our trades people - most of them have been fantastic, happy to offer views / help problem solve and the work good quality excellent.

We quite like solving problems and were happy to work with problems, solving as we went along.

We spent many many hours (often very late at night) going over quotes / specifications from suppliers to agree purchases - things like windows, doors, rooflights, bathroom fittings, kitchen etc but also plastering, electrics etc.  Would a PM help with this because honestly this does take up alot of time (but is key to the final finish)

We have made mistakes.  Would a PM have avoided them?  I honestly don't know.  Probably some.  But unlikely all.  

We haven't yet finished.  A PM would probably not have allowed it to drag on this long.  But life (and lockdown) has got in the way so things have slowed up.

 

I hope your build goes well.  I would like to do another but I have said, since we started this one, that I would never do one again whilst working full time.  So maybe that's the honest answer.  The passage of time hasn't yet made me reassess that statement ?

[puntloos]

From this topic, if there's anything I think I can conclude is that you need someone with the time to do it. And yes, paying someone is more expensive, but might gain you experience you need to pick up 'manually' otherwise.

 

A quote from a renowned QS+PM was in the range of 15,000 for QSing and 10,000 for PMing a 250sqm house. This was 2019 btw, no idea if that price went up or down since then. 

 

Worth it? Hard to say, but given that the full build price would be around 600,000 if assuming 2500/sqm. 4% for "not having to do a ton of work".. perhaps not unreasonable, and there's even a chance they earn their money back by QSing tightly... no?

 

[recoveringbuilder]

When we were getting ready to start this journey we initially were going to get a turnkey build. A local company quoted for it and we were handed the quote along with the QS paperwork, the quote came in at £100k over the amount of finance we had available and that was not including any landscaping, driveway or garage and was only allowing £8k for a kitchen but it didn’t take long to discover that the prices the qs was quoting for materials were way above what we knew we could get them for. We couldn’t have paid his price so we had no option but to go it alone, (it probably helped that we had done it twice before )

We were fortunate that we found a builder who was willing to work on a labour only basis for the majority of the big stuff. I spent all my spare time (I was working 3 days a week and babysitting a 4 year old and a 2 year old two days a week) sourcing materials and organising deliveries and checking things were happening when they should, it took a lot of time and as the money started going out it was very stressful, don’t know how many sheets of paper with calculations I had and it made me into someone I didn’t recognise as I had never been a confrontational person but quickly discovered I would need to be to get things done! We did save that £100k and ended up with a better spec house than we would have had if we’d gone with the first company, nobody is going to look after your money the way you would yourself!

[Bored Shopper]

All through our build I came to have increasing respect for one of the most famous quotes of this Forum: "someone else's common sense is not your common sense"! Even the greates QS/PM would not be looking after your budget as well as you would. They would compromise on one thing and suggest splashing out on another whilst you would do it vice versa just because you know what is more important for you and fits your lifestyle better.

 

What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that even with a QS/PM you HAVE to be pretty much involved. A complete turnkey would probably work if you intend to build and quickly sell to make money - you won't care much as it's not going to be your permanent home. 

[Bitpipe]

12 hours ago, Sarah A said:

We are also debating having a PM for part of our self build as we both work full time and can't be on-site every day. Has anyone else in here PMd a project while working? 

 

I think those of us who are not retired or won lottery have done do

 

We lived on site which helps massively with logistics but is not essential.

 

My big discovery was that a PM is not a site manager. Many will not be on site every day and certainly will not consider opening & closing site, taking deliveries etc as their job. So if you need that, you need to pay for it separately or do it yourself.

 

Neither will they clean up at the end of the day, check what's been done, tidy stuff away etc.. They will likely be there for more 'mission critical  things, but if you're using good contractors then that should not be necessary.

 

We parted with the architect after planning was obtained as their costs for BC stages were quite high and as we were using packages, somewhat duplicative (drawings etc). I spent a bit of time discharging our planning conditions and reviewing the detailed design of the basement and frame and I think this gave me the confidence to oversee the work itself - at least I understood what the expected end result was even if somewhat clueless on how it was actually going to happen.

 

We hired a PM to do a PHPP analysis and commission a QS plan and this was a really valuable tool as it quantified all the 'things' we needed stage by stage and put default costs against them so when I was getting real prices, I had something to act as a guide. That said, the QS pricing was about 25-30% above what we ended spending and the PM's fee would have been 10% of the build cost so we saved both.

 

Packages for the key initial parts of the build help remove the need for a PM or even site manager. If the build is being done piecemeal then a main contractor is a good bet as they will combine PM and site management but will impose an overhead for management costs / profit. You're also dependent on the trades they choose.

 

From there you can use good subs (electrical, plumbing etc..) do do their bits and you act as a bit of an orchestra conductor.

 

On our build we did one package for the demo / basement and another package for the timber frame - very much observers for all of that, I did some  sourcing & install for basement insulation and lightwells as they were not specialties of the contractor.

 

Once the frame was up, we got the windows in, roof tiled and render applied plus soffit, fascia, rainwater goods etc in one busy month while the scaff was still there.

 

Again, effort here was initial sourcing and agreement of supply/fix contracts (windows took most effort, however I independently sourced the Velux and saved a substantial amount on those.) and generally watching what was going on and making sure we were happy before the trades were paid.

 

I did the rite of passage that is MVHR first fix and sourced all that kit at a decent price.

 

Thereafter during the rest of first fix the trades came and went as needed - it was slow and steady and we did not need to source anything for them but we did start to accumulate second fix items (mostly sanitary ware). We did not have a pre-existing M&E plan (saving ££) so the first fix designs evolved with discussion with the trades and a few things were added last minute.

 

Main input here was confirming locations of things (sockets, sanitary etc) but only required a few hours of onsite time with each trade plus a few phone calls. Use of FaceTime etc would make that a lot easier now.

 

After first fix was complete things got a bit more involved - we hired a joiner to make good the first fix (boxing in etc) as since he was labour only, we needed to do a lot more sourcing but also got more involved in design of some elements.

 

We then moved to plastering and decorating - again, largely hands off for that aside from choosing colours etc.

 

Tiling & floor finishes required sourcing but that is very personal in taste and part of the fun - as most of second fix is 'what you see' you will want to be deeply involved in it anyway.

 

Joiner back in for second fix carpentry (doors, skirts, architrave etc) then second fix electrics & plumbing and the kitchen was one of the last things to go in before we moved back.

 

We did final stairs a few months after that (didn't want them getting wrecked) and landscaping came the following year - again we had a labour only deal there so did lots of sourcing and speccing.

 

So it was not a huge amount of effort, no real skill required aside from knowing what you can and can't afford and what end result you want.

 

 

[puntloos]

Thanks @Bitpipe - that's awesome detail! 

 

One big question I still have is indeed how the 'negotiation' around one item would go day to day.

 

1/ I care deeply about the item being good, say the microwave oven then ideally Id just give someone the instruction "Get me the Bosch 123-f revision 3"

   a/ If the device is 'common' (the current model, a straightforward brand)  What will happen next? Will they go to wickes, buy it, done? Or will someone care to also go to homebase, bosch.co.uk to compare? 

   b/ If this is the weird limited edition last year's model.. then what? 

   c/ If manufacturer x has it but can only deliver by some late date, and y has my second choice but it will arrive on time etc - who decideds on such tradeoffs

 

2/ It's important to me, but I haven't done research, e.g. I know I want my doorhandles to be nice but don't have a strong opinion (yet) 

  a/ Will someone research this and present me with 3 options that will arrive on time, and a few pros and cons of that shape, size, brand?

 

3/ it's probably important, but I don't care, say the specific wood glue needed to secure some bobbins

   a/ Can I just trust they will get the 'right stuff' at a reasonable price?

 

Can someone outline how this goes? How badly is my ignorance showing?  

 

[puntloos]

More in general I think the roles that I would have in my build:

 

- One main contractor, who has their own electrician, plumber etc. Not my concern who de actual person is. 

 

- A tendering project manager. 

·         Put together plan pack, set up tender, analyse, pick the best

 

- A build project manager

·         Preparing contract documents for execution

·         Administering change control procedures

·         Seek instructions from the client in relation to the contract

·         Issue instructions such as variations, or relating to prime cost / provisional sums or making good of defects

·         Review claims for extension of time and loss / expense and subsequent and award of same if justified

·         Chair construction progress meetings

·         Prepare and issue construction progress reports

·         Co-ordinate and instruct site inspections

·         Agree commissioning and testing procedures

·         Co-ordinate defects reporting procedures with Architect

·         Ensure that project documentation is issued to the client

·         Issue interim payment certificates

·         Issue final payment certificate

·         Issuing certificate of practical completion

·         Co-ordinate the issue of schedule of defects with Architect

·         Co-ordinate the issue of the certificate of making good of defects with Architect

 

And a QS

 

·         Monthly interim financial valuation of contractor’s progress and subsequent issue of certificate to architect recommending value of such payment

·         Financial management of costs in association with change orders / instructed variations

·         Client cost reporting to appraise you of the projected final cost of the project

·         Negotiation with contractor regarding the value of instructed change to the project, negotiation and settlement of contractor’s final account

·         Evaluation of potential contractor’s claims for loss and expense

·         Bi-monthly (every 2^nd month) client cost reporting to appraise you of the projected final cost of the development

·         Cost / value engineering

·         Dispute avoidance / evaluation of contractor’s potential claims for loss and expense

·         Attendance at regular design and site progress meetings

 

Am I missing anything important here?

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

Thanks @Bitpipe - that's awesome detail! 

 

One big question I still have is indeed how the 'negotiation' around one item would go day to day.

 

1/ I care deeply about the item being good, say the microwave oven then ideally Id just give someone the instruction "Get me the Bosch 123-f revision 3"

   a/ If the device is 'common' (the current model, a straightforward brand)  What will happen next? Will they go to wickes, buy it, done? Or will someone care to also go to homebase, bosch.co.uk to compare? 

   b/ If this is the weird limited edition last year's model.. then what? 

   c/ If manufacturer x has it but can only deliver by some late date, and y has my second choice but it will arrive on time etc - who decideds on such tradeoffs

 

2/ It's important to me, but I haven't done research, e.g. I know I want my doorhandles to be nice but don't have a strong opinion (yet) 

  a/ Will someone research this and present me with 3 options that will arrive on time, and a few pros and cons of that shape, size, brand?

 

3/ it's probably important, but I don't care, say the specific wood glue needed to secure some bobbins

   a/ Can I just trust they will get the 'right stuff' at a reasonable price?

 

Can someone outline how this goes? How badly is my ignorance showing?  

 

 

Generally in life, If you can expect someone to put a significant level of effort into satisfying your needs  if a) they're in deeply, deeply in love with you, b) they are operating under fear of pain, death or unemployment or c) you are paying them handsomely.

 

Most of us selfbuilers can only rely on c).

 

Now, can you afford to buy that level of commitment then good luck. Otherwise if you care about it (quality or cost) then you need to do the work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

More in general I think the roles that I would have in my build:

 

- One main contractor, who has their own electrician, plumber etc. Not my concern who de actual person is. 

 

- A tendering project manager. 

·         Put together plan pack, set up tender, analyse, pick the best

 

- A build project manager

·         Preparing contract documents for execution

·         Administering change control procedures

·         Seek instructions from the client in relation to the contract

·         Issue instructions such as variations, or relating to prime cost / provisional sums or making good of defects

·         Review claims for extension of time and loss / expense and subsequent and award of same if justified

·         Chair construction progress meetings

·         Prepare and issue construction progress reports

·         Co-ordinate and instruct site inspections

·         Agree commissioning and testing procedures

·         Co-ordinate defects reporting procedures with Architect

·         Ensure that project documentation is issued to the client

·         Issue interim payment certificates

·         Issue final payment certificate

·         Issuing certificate of practical completion

·         Co-ordinate the issue of schedule of defects with Architect

·         Co-ordinate the issue of the certificate of making good of defects with Architect

 

And a QS

 

·         Monthly interim financial valuation of contractor’s progress and subsequent issue of certificate to architect recommending value of such payment

·         Financial management of costs in association with change orders / instructed variations

·         Client cost reporting to appraise you of the projected final cost of the project

·         Negotiation with contractor regarding the value of instructed change to the project, negotiation and settlement of contractor’s final account

·         Evaluation of potential contractor’s claims for loss and expense

·         Bi-monthly (every 2^nd month) client cost reporting to appraise you of the projected final cost of the development

·         Cost / value engineering

·         Dispute avoidance / evaluation of contractor’s potential claims for loss and expense

·         Attendance at regular design and site progress meetings

 

Am I missing anything important here?

 

Have you figured the overhead you're prepared to pay for all these functions?

 

If you need that level of professional services attention during your build (and expect high quality vs box ticking) , do not be surprised if you add 20-30%+ to your build budget. And as it services, not eligible for VAT (unless part of your build package).

 

 

[puntloos]

36 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Have you figured the overhead you're prepared to pay for all these functions?

 

If you need that level of professional services attention during your build (and expect high quality vs box ticking) , do not be surprised if you add 20-30%+ to your build budget. And as it services, not eligible for VAT (unless part of your build package).

 

So how would one distinguish between 'box ticking' vs 'high quality'?

 

There are private QSes - e.g. they only support selfbuilders - that do this for a living so presumably the service they offer is worth it for some people. Are you claiming those people are just gullible since a private QS might be sad if they get a negative 'findatrade.co.uk' rating but they can keep it up, and 'paying handsomely' is some type of king's ransom that nobody can afford?

 

in this forum people are hoping to build for 1000/sqm, which indeed puts hiring a QS out of their range - at least, it would constitute an outsize cost to employ another dude(m/f) for this, perhaps I've got a slightly larger budget (of course I'd love 1000!) but less time.. surely a new balance exists..

 

How about this question: if your goal was to reach the same level of quality work as you did yourself, but could only spend 1/4 of the time on it, but have some extra budget for personnel -  how, and who would you pay to get this done? Or would you just give up?

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by puntloos

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

How about this question: if your goal was to reach the same level of quality work as you did yourself, but could only spend 1/4 of the time on it, but have some extra budget for personnel -  how, and who would you pay to get this done? Or would you just give up?

 

1) Someone (a PM or QS) who can help you setup a project timeline, cost plan and help you find a main contractor at a reasonable price and set up a contract with them.

2) A good main contractor.  (Who won't necesairly cost any more than a PM hiring individual contractors, but unlike a PM will i) own the site ii) take on main contractor CDM responsibility iii) have a price/time commitment)

 

If possible pay PM/QS by task/hours, and avoid them taking a % as a contract administrator. 

 

If you have a good main contractor you can trust and have agreed prices/formulas and a contract in place, I can't really see why you need all the meetings/valuations and other items you listed.  If you have a mortgage that needs a valuation, they'll send someone out to do this.