My extension & my neighbour

[Gummo]

Comrades, my next-door neighbour happened to mention that, maybe next year, he intends installing decking over his wee back yard and possible over his single-storey extension.

He said he intends to connect his joists to my extension (23) on one side and to his extension (25) on the other side of his yard - see image (joist indicated in orange). The image I've uploaded is from the own plans for my extension years ago.

Do you reckon he has any right to do this if I don't want this structure attached to my house?

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

I think a lot depends on whether the wall he wishes to fix things to is wholly yours, or a shared/party wall.  It looks as if the wall is probably 100% yours if it's an extension to your house, in which case he needs an agreement from you to do this.  I'd guess that this needs a Party Wall Agreement: https://www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works

[DevilDamo]

@Gummo What do you mean he wants to install decking over his single storey extension? Is he thinking about using the flat roof as a terrace/balcony? The bit you’ve shown in orange, is he proposing some kind of covered area or more like an enclosed structure? Depending on what your neighbour is proposing and if it needs Planning, they’d have to formally serve notice on you as they’re proposing to use a part of your wall for their development.

[tonyshouse]

It sounds bang no to from a planning point of view as it will be overlooking never mind the h&s and fire safety /access egress problems 

[Tony K]

@Gummo I presume this is not just an odd choice in roof finish, and that he is instead thinking of creating a raised terrace or balcony to sit out on.

If so then, for my sins, I deal with this kind of thing as part of my day job.

 

Building Regs:

The work may require approval under the Building Regulations, and wouldn't normally get approval unless it had guard rails around it to stop someone falling off. I say it 'may' require BR approval....It certainly would if he inserts a new door to lead out onto the roof. If, however, he intends to climb out the window to access the deck then it becomes a bit more debatable, as the actual building work taking place is very limited. The local Council building control team would have to form a view. 

 

Planning:

Planning permission might not be required for the work if its just a roof over the void (depends on the depth of it), but it certainly would be if he wants to use it to sit out on, and/or if he installs a guard rail. Also, check if the planning permission for his extension itself: Did it include a condition that the roof not be used for sitting out on (this gets more likely the more recent the permission, you can check on the Council website). If so, he certainly also needs permission even to use the existing roof for sitting out on.

 

If planning permission is required for the work then it will almost certainly be refused due to overlooking, or only approved with a condition that no sitting out can take place on it. 

 

Structure:

In any event, any structural impact upon your property is a private civil matter between you and him, and not something the Council can help you with at all.

 

General:

We all have bad ideas sometimes, and he has certainly had one here if he intends to sit out on it. If that's the idea, then tell him asap that you don't want him to do it, that it will affect the value of your property (it will), that he is likely to need but not get planning permission, building control approval, or both, and that you won't let him screw anything to your wall. An awkward conversation to have, but if he's told you about his plans and you don't say anything now, you are only making it worse later on when you do.  

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Tony K

[Gummo]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

@Gummo What do you mean he wants to install decking over his single storey extension? Is he thinking about using the flat roof as a terrace/balcony? The bit you’ve shown in orange, is he proposing some kind of covered area or more like an enclosed structure? Depending on what your neighbour is proposing and if it needs Planning, they’d have to formally serve notice on you as they’re proposing to use a part of your wall for their development.

It was clear from the conversation that he sees this as a terrace.

[Gummo]

1 hour ago, Tony K said:

@Gummo I presume this is not just an odd choice in roof finish, and that he is instead thinking of creating a raised terrace or balcony to sit out on.

If so then, for my sins, I deal with this kind of thing as part of my day job.

 

Building Regs:

The work may require approval under the Building Regulations, and wouldn't normally get approval unless it had guard rails around it to stop someone falling off. I say it 'may' require BR approval....It certainly would if he inserts a new door to lead out onto the roof. If, however, he intends to climb out the window to access the deck then it becomes a bit more debatable, as the actual building work taking place is very limited. The local Council building control team would have to form a view. 

 

Planning:

Planning permission might not be required for the work if its just a roof over the void (depends on the depth of it), but it certainly would be if he wants to use it to sit out on, and/or if he installs a guard rail. Also, check if the planning permission for his extension itself: Did it include a condition that the roof not be used for sitting out on (this gets more likely the more recent the permission, you can check on the Council website). If so, he certainly also needs permission even to use the existing roof for sitting out on.

 

If planning permission is required for the work then it will almost certainly be refused due to overlooking, or only approved with a condition that no sitting out can take place on it. 

 

Structure:

In any event, any structural impact upon your property is a private civil matter between you and him, and not something the Council can help you with at all.

 

General:

We all have bad ideas sometimes, and he has certainly had one here if he intends to sit out on it. If that's the idea, then tell him asap that you don't want him to do it, that it will affect the value of your property (it will), that he is likely to need but not get planning permission, building control approval, or both, and that you won't let him screw anything to your wall. An awkward conversation to have, but if he's told you about his plans and you don't say anything now, you are only making it worse later on when you do.  

 

 

Tony, thanks very much for taking the time to furnish me with your wisdom.

He definitely sees this as a terrace and, presumably, carry out the same functions that a terrace would provide.  He thinks he can use a variation of a loft-ladder for access from the back-gate steps.  So, from what you say, the council is only concerned with structural integrity and they will have no mandate in terms of trespass?

Is the bottom line that no work can be done to my wall without my permission?

[Vijay]

I've been in the same position with a neighbour planning on a terrace on top of his single storey extension with railings all the way around, which would have directly overlooked into my dining room and straight into my spare bedroom. He just carried on so I got the council involved, they put a stop to it straight away and they would only allow a Juliette balcony because of privacy.

[Roundtuit]

59 minutes ago, Gummo said:

It was clear from the conversation that he sees this as a terrace.

 

I know it's semantics, but just for clarity, can we define a 'terrace' please?  A terrace for me is like a patio or walkway at ground level.  Your image looks more 'balcony', unless we're talking about some sort of roof over a patio?

[Tony K]

2 hours ago, Gummo said:

 So, from what you say, the council is only concerned with structural integrity and they will have no mandate in terms of trespass?

Is the bottom line that no work can be done to my wall without my permission?

 

Sounds more and more like he'll need planning permission. The council has absolutely no power to address trespass, damage to your property or any party wall issues though. They are all private civil matters. 

 

I'm not sure if it's as simple as saying that no work can be done to your wall without your permission, but that's just because I work in council planning enforcement and as per my advice above, we don't deal with civil issues, so it's not my area of expertise. I'd think it should be exactly as you say, though it can be an expensive business if you do end up in PWA dispute though, so avoid it if possible. 

 

You'll get plenty of people advising you to put your objections in writing early on, so there is a solid record if you do ever end up in court. Those people are right, but my experience is that these things can turn very sour and linger for ever if handled too formally and coldly. I see it so often. Whatever the legal rights and wrongs, you need to live next to this guy. Get him round for a cup of tea and have a friendly but clear chat before you start firing off emails and solicitors letters. You can always ramp up the formalities later on if needed, but it's hard to repair the damage to the relationship if you go too heavy too soon. 

 

 

[Temp]

6 hours ago, Gummo said:

Comrades, my next-door neighbour happened to mention that, maybe next year, he intends installing decking over his wee back yard and possible over his single-storey extension.

He said he intends to connect his joists to my extension (23) on one side and to his extension (25) on the other side of his yard - see image (joist indicated in orange).

 

If he plans to sit up there then it definitely need Planning Permission...

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/11/decking

 

 

Quote

Putting up decking, or other raised platforms, in your garden is permitted development, not needing an application for planning permission, providing:

 

• The decking is no more than 30cm above the ground

[/Quote]

Your drawing shows it will be more than 30cm (about 1 foot) above ground so it needs Planning Permission.

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Temp

[Temp]

As for fixing to your house. It depends if your wall is a party wall as defined by Page 5 onwards of The Guide to the Party Wall Act. Down this page...

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance

 

Note that just because one part of a wall is a party wall that doesn't mean the whole wall is a party wall. The bit of the wall between your houses might be a party wall but the bit that is part of your extension might not be.

 

Does the wall of your extension line up with the wall inside your house or is it a bit on your side? When you build an extension right up to a boundary like yours the eaves are not meant to overhang the boundary without permission. This sometimes means the wall of the extension has to be built back from the boundary by a few inches.

 

If it's not a party wall he can't fix to it without your permission. If it is a party wall he probably needs to follow the procedure in the Act and that will be too expensive for him. It involves asking your permission and if you refuse he has to pay for Party Wall surveyors (plural if you insist). The party wall surveyor may say he can but the cost of the surveyors will almost certainly put him off.

 

See also page 11..

 

However, the key point is whether your planned work might have any possible consequences for the structural strength and support functions of the party wall as a whole, or cause damage to the Adjoining Owner's side of the wall. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

In addition to the need for Planning Permission the Planning Portal says...

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/11/decking/2

 

BuildingRegulations should be assumed to apply to every deck structure requiring planning permission.

 

That will mean he needs railings to stop people falling off and proper stairs or an access door from the house.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gummo]

13 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

 

I know it's semantics, but just for clarity, can we define a 'terrace' please?

Ye could argue till the cows come home on that one (that's semantics for ye).
https://bit.ly/3dsFqmb

[Gummo]

12 hours ago, Tony K said:

You'll get plenty of people advising you to put your objections in writing early on, so there is a solid record if you do ever end up in court. Those people are right, but my experience is that these things can turn very sour and linger for ever if handled too formally and coldly. I see it so often. Whatever the legal rights and wrongs, you need to live next to this guy. Get him round for a cup of tea and have a friendly but clear chat before you start firing off emails and solicitors letters. You can always ramp up the formalities later on if needed, but it's hard to repair the damage to the relationship if you go too heavy too soon.

Those wise words reflect thoughts I've been having throughout.  I've been toying with the phrases and friendly tone I could employ simultaneous to telling him that I don't want such heavy-duty fixings to my wall.

[Tony K]

In planning terms the General Permitted Development Order has bits prohibiting...

 

(i) the construction or provision of a verandah, balcony or raised platform

 

This is defined in the guidance as...

 

A raised platform is any platform with a height greater than 0.3 metres and will include roof terraces.

[Gummo]

11 hours ago, Temp said:

Does the wall of your extension line up with the wall inside your house or is it a bit on your side? 

 

On the inside of the house, the extension is 55mm nearer to me.

[Mike]

8 hours ago, Gummo said:

I don't want such heavy-duty fixings to my wall.

What fixings is he proposing? Why not explore alternative systems that might be acceptable to you?

 

I can't that his proposal is likely to cause a significant problem - and the access may make it easier for you if you need to clean out your gutter / repair the roof, etc., apart from the good will your consent would generate...

[Vijay]

something to think about too, what if you want to sell your house, would it put buyers off?

[Gummo]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

What fixings is he proposing? Why not explore alternative systems that might be acceptable to you?

 

I can't that his proposal is likely to cause a significant problem - and the access may make it easier for you if you need to clean out your gutter / repair the roof, etc., apart from the good will your consent would generate...

He mentioned joists - that's not what I built the extension for.  I suspect too that, since he's a single man in a terraced house that the space he creates isn't solely for sunbathing.

[Gummo]

2 hours ago, Vijay said:

something to think about too, what if you want to sell your house, would it put buyers off?

It has put me off already and nothing's close to being erected.

[Temp]

Unless you look after it decking can get pretty darn slippery. There is a reason sailors are always scrubbing the deck in old pirate movies.

[DevilDamo]

Just wait to see if/when you receive notification from the Planning department about an application having been submitted.

 

As mentioned before, as the proposals would connect onto your your wall, the neighbour  would have to serve notice on your prior to or upon submission of the application to which you will have 21 days to comment. If you do not receive a notice, get in contact with the Planning department direct because the applicant may in the background tell and confirm to them that none of his development will physically connect to yours. To get around this, he may look at retaining a small gap between the edge of this so-called balcony and your wall and in effect create a cantilever.

 

If the neighbour proceeds with the works without Planning, then you’d be in your right mind to get in contact with the Council. They would request an application be submitted or advise enforcement action will be taken.

[Gummo]

19 hours ago, Temp said:

Unless you look after it decking can get pretty darn slippery. There is a reason sailors are always scrubbing the deck in old pirate movies.

Walking on wet wood gives me the heebie-jeebies be it decking or not.

[Gummo]

12 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

Just wait to see if/when you receive notification from the Planning department about an application having been submitted.

 

As mentioned before, as the proposals would connect onto your your wall, the neighbour  would have to serve notice on your prior to or upon submission of the application to which you will have 21 days to comment. If you do not receive a notice, get in contact with the Planning department direct because the applicant may in the background tell and confirm to them that none of his development will physically connect to yours. To get around this, he may look at retaining a small gap between the edge of this so-called balcony and your wall and in effect create a cantilever.

 

If the neighbour proceeds with the works without Planning, then you’d be in your right mind to get in contact with the Council. They would request an application be submitted or advise enforcement action will be taken.

A major factor is the fact that, no matter how civil he is, I get the impression that the council and planners won't be getting any application from him!