Smart Meters...

[SteamyTea]

There was a bit on the radio on Saturday about how dangerous all these devices are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000htnt

[ProDave]

7 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

My 2p.....

 

I held off for a SMETS2. Very happy I dont do meter readings anymore...no idea of the tariff but uswitch said it was great. 

 

Dont be too paranoid about things we don't know about. 

 

I've never read anything negative about smart meters really (apart from SMETS1 not being able to change suppliers) until I read this thread. As far as I was aware...it in a bid for is to reduce energy usage and stop paying estimated Bill's.. 

I thought smart meters were meant to put you in control and feed you all the information you need?  Yours has done the opposite, you now have no idea how much you use or what it costs.  Do you ever look at the bills or just let them take their monthly amount without checking it?

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yours has done the opposite, you now have no idea how much you use or what it costs.

That is a really good observation.  I may use that more often.

[SuperJohnG]

6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a really good observation.  I may use that more often.

@SteamyTea @ProDave

you've made an assumption which is wrong there. I look at the bill every single day in the smart meter to track usage. I also know I have the best deal I can get through uswitch.

 

Still not getting the reason for assuming its negative. 

[Jeremy Harris]

The visibility of usage has no relevance to smart meters, really, as it's pretty easy for anyone to be able to monitor their energy use so they can adjust their usage pattern to better fit off-peak periods.  We got a free energy monitor from one of the energy suppliers years ago, used a wireless current transformer clipped around a meter tail and a small indoor display unit.  That was around ten years ago.  Our current house has something very similar, and there's a display in the kitchen showing the current usage and whether we're importing or exporting power, so we can switch on things like the dishwasher and washing machine when we're generating.

 

The purpose of smart meters isn't to get people to reduce their energy use, it's to maximise profits for suppliers, by reducing their wholesale purchasing risk and eventually passing that on to consumers in the form of variable tariffs when there is a big enough take up.  We're seeing what I strongly believe are "loss leader" variable rate tariffs now, being promoted on the basis of the short periods when the energy price is very low.  I've been tracking their prices for a while now, and have found that the periods of low prices are pretty impractical for any demand that needs to run for several hours (like an ASHP running UFH). 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

you've made an assumption which is wrong there

It was based on this

7 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

Very happy I dont do meter readings anymore...no idea of the tariff but uswitch said it was great. 

So a reasonable assumption on @ProDave's part.

(I actually made no assumptions, just liked the observation)

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

it's to maximise profits for suppliers, by reducing their wholesale purchasing risk and passing that on to consumers in the form of variable tariffs

I think there big saving is in meter reading.

I have no idea what it costs to read a meter, but probably £2 a month (100 meters a day at £200 a day).

That £2 is about 40 kWh at wholesale or 15 kWh at retail.  I would think that sort of amount is lost in rounding errors, weather effects and mistakes.

 

And it is a lot less than a Tesla looses when just sitting in the drive.

Edited May 4, 2020 by SteamyTea

[SuperJohnG]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

It was based on this

So a reasonable assumption on @ProDave's part.

(I actually made no assumptions, just liked the observation)

@ProDaveWell I'll rephrase... I dont the know exact cost per kWh and standing charge, off the top of my head. However when I switch every year I do a detailed analysis and ensure I'm getting a decent deal. Plus I have a smart meter so I track daily usage and also I monitor the direct debit. Hopefully that makes it clearer. 

 

So no it has put me in control and feeds me all the information I need.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

I think there big saving is in meter reading.

I have no idea what it costs to read a meter, but probably £2 a month (100 meters a day at £200 a day).

That £2 is about 40 kWh at wholesale or 15 kWh at retail.  I would think that sort of amount is lost in rounding errors, weather effects and mistakes.

 

And it is a lot less than a Tesla looses when just sitting in the drive.

 

A year or so ago I had a chat with the SSE meter reader when he came around.  I remarked to him that smart meters would put him out of a job, and he replied that it wouldn't, as they were still legally required to manually read smart meters.

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think there big saving is in meter reading.

I have no idea what it costs to read a meter, but probably £2 a month (100 meters a day at £200 a day).

That £2 is about 40 kWh at wholesale or 15 kWh at retail.  I would think that sort of amount is lost in rounding errors, weather effects and mistakes.

But with a standard meter you send a monthly reading or they estimate it.  the days or regular meter readings are long gone.  Now you have a statutory meter reading every 2 years.  I assume even smart meters get that as it's as much about safety and detecting fraud than getting an accurate reading.

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, ProDave said:

But with a standard meter you send a monthly reading or they estimate it.  the days or regular meter readings are long gone.  Now you have a statutory meter reading every 2 years.  I assume even smart meters get that as it's as much about safety and detecting fraud than getting an accurate reading.

 

Here they still read the meter every year, and even if we had a smart meter the chap reckoned he'd still be here every year to read it.  At the same time he reads the generation meter, too, and the requirement to regularly read the generation meter remains even if smart meters are rolled out universally.

[SteamyTea]

Just now, Jeremy Harris said:

I remarked to him that smart meters would put him out of a job, and he replied that it wouldn't, as they were still legally required to manually read smart meters.

That is while we are going though a transition.

If you are sending a man to a street where 99% of the houses are on Smart Meters, you may as well get him to read them all as the big expense is in getting the man there,

 

I am not against the idea of remote meter reading, just that I do not fully trust the data handling.

4 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

So no it has put me in control and feeds me all the information I need.

I think we knew that, just that you did highlight an interesting problem that some people may think they have done all they need to by getting a Smart Meter fitted.

My neighbour has one and she is on Pay as You Go.  She never reads the display, it just works as a night light in the kitchen, for the cat.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Now you have a statutory meter reading every 2 years.

 

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Here they still read the meter every year,

Same here, and I am amazed how accurate EDF (or whoever does their billing) are.

 

Yesterday I used 10 kWh.  It was washing day.

Edited May 4, 2020 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Same here, and I am amazed how accurate EDF (or whoever does their billing) are.

 

Yesterday I used 10 kWh.  It was washing day.

You need solar PV.  Washing day here and the sun is shining.

[A_L]

19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Yesterday I used 10 kWh.  It was washing day.

 

Saturday 02/05 I used 4.4kWh. It was washing day. ?

[SteamyTea]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You need solar PV

Yes I do, but I would also need batteries as I doubt that a 2kW array would run my washing machine, especially yesterday as it was wet, then grey, and quite cold (though I can do my washing any day).

6 minutes ago, A_L said:

Saturday 02/05 I used 4.4kWh. It was washing day

Do you run your DHW and any heating off the mains?  I do.

[tonyshouse]

Smart meter do not reduce energy use

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, tonyshouse said:

Smart meter do not reduce energy use

Well no.  But I don't think anyone serious has claimed they do.

Bit like saying that the fuel pumps at Esso stations save fuel.

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, tonyshouse said:

Smart meter do not reduce energy use

 

Exactly.  Stands to reason that energy suppliers, who are make their profit from selling energy, aren't going to promote something that reduces their profit.  They want to be able to reduce their risk exposure on the wholesale market, by passing that price variability on to the consumer.  This means they can then operate on a "cost plus" business model, where any change in the wholesale price gets immediately reflected in the price the consumer pays at any instant, with the supplier's profit margin remaining secure.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Stands to reason that energy suppliers, who are make their profit from selling energy, aren't going to promote something that reduces their profit

Profit is not solely based on units sold though.

A Rolls Royce dealer is probably just as profitable as a Peugeot dealer, but sells a lot less cars.

(John will be along to say I am speaking bollocks, but I could have said the same about Farm Shops and Tesco, or Saville Row tailors and Primark)

Edited May 4, 2020 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

This "saves energy" claim has been investigated at least twice by the ASA.  You will now note the footnote now to the smart meter advertising that you can only save energy by monitoring your energy usage and making changes to what you use.  But lets be clear about that, it is NOT the smart meter that enables that, it is the energy display gizmo, and as already noted you do NOT need a smart meter to have one of those.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

But lets be clear about that, it is NOT the smart meter that enables that, it is the energy display gizmo, and as already noted you do NOT need a smart meter to have one of those.

Not even that really, it is a desire to save energy by the user, the meter type or display is only a tool to help.

If you think back a decade, some people over at the other place, thought that using a CT clamp to sense the current was pointless as they did not take voltage or power factor into account.

They totally missed the point.

[joe90]

Ha, a mate of mine recently told me he was going to save as he had a smart meter fitted (his wife stood behind him shaking her head) ?

[ToughButterCup]

12 hours ago, Benjseb said:

 [...]

As an example (?)

 

I'm taking your comment as a question.  Yes, please.

A simple link to an online resource which we can read: one which shows a refereed article documenting the ... 

On 02/05/2020 at 09:53, Benjseb said:

[...]

Latest research (which) show(s) RF, especially low dose, high regularity,  increases calcium uptake in cells by many orders of magnitude. When most of the population have too much calcium in their cells anyway due to magnesium deficiency, this can exaggerate the issue.

[...]

 

please.

Its important that members have the chance to read source material for themselves so they can make up their own minds about the accuracy of generalised statements such as the one given above  '... Latest research shows ...'

[A_L]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Do you run your DHW and any heating off the mains?  I do.

 

I knew you did, I was just being provocative! I used about 20.16kWh of gas for CH/DHW that day and averaged about that for the week.