Critique my final design (almost?) ready for Planning Permission...

[puntloos]

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

OK, my quick sketch before bed, sorry for the lined paper.

 

If you use normal 100mm wide stud walls, then you have 7.5m across the back, less 200mm of wall.

Seems to me you'd need 200 between two baths for proper shared plumbing? You think you can get away with 100?

 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

Also the wall between the bathroom/en suite and the landing being 100m frees up 100mm to make the rooms 3.5m long.

 

Agreed, done.

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

If you reduce the size of the shower in the main bathroom (or do away with it) and cut the main bathroom to a still decent 1.9m wide

Worth considering, will discuss with my wife if she thinks this would work. (of course we can mod our bathroom for ages before we have to commit )

 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

then you can put the master en suite where the walk in is and the walk in where the en suite is.

As the walk in is narrower then this gives you more room for the spare room which can also have a wardrobe.

True.. but I think we'd lose a certain flow of life, in particular dressing/undressing is the first thing you do in evening, last thing you do in morning.

So I'd say you would want to walk from walkin into the rest to the house.

 

Also, if we use your door, then there is only one wall of separation between the 'master suite' and the rest of the house.

With a door in the walkin (and then a door into the bed section) you have two. Feels more protected..

 

Also, 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

There is plenty of scope in those spaces for bathroom design, I just put something down quickly. I should have drawn the main bathroom the other way round so the pipework backs on to the pipework on the en suite.

Yep, but we already have the kid ensuite too, so I guess you will have to do pipes everywhere anyway.,

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

In the en suite I put the WC in a little space of its own

Tiny room for WC? I've seen that done more often, but why? Not a privacy thing I assume, I don't think i'd be happy with my wife rummaging around the bathroom if I'm on the toilet regardless..

 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

and made a walk in shower, but there is plenty of space to do other things. All of our showers are walk in, no doors to clean

? What does walk in have to do with doors to clean? If anything walkins have more doors than over-bath ones?

 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

and more space efficient. Putting the door into the middle of the ensuite and not the end usually lets you use the space better.

Good tip, will consider.. 

 

8 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

 

 

 

 

[puntloos]

Here's an updated design after a day or 2 discussions. 

 

Changes:

- 1200mm anywhere between island and wall

- Moved kitchen pocket door forward into living

- Island modified to:

• 30cm sink (w/ quooker)
• 90cm prep area
• 88cm hob (Novy Panorama is 88cm wide)

- Utility into thermal envelope. (slight reshuffle of hall)

- Garage renamed utility. Resuffle. 

- 1.2m carport

- Removed side door, created oversize(1100mm) main door 

- Aligned many walls with top floor

 

 

 

- Updated wall widths, thicker walls for kid+master, and around bathrooms. Thin everywhere else.

- Slight reshuffle of walls to align with below

- BR2, M-Ensuite taller, BR5 slightly thinner. BR3 slightly thinner

- BR3 removed one window

 

 

Checkout the animated changes (after all comments) here! [drive.google.com]

 

Design by Buildhub Committee.. Cool

Edited May 25, 2020 by puntloos

[AliG]

Good morning!

 

Kitchen/utility much better now. That is what I meant about gaining the space where the wall was, but didn’t have time to draw. The door closer on our utility room was noisy and I had to have it replaced as people seemed to go in and out of that more than any other room in the house. You won't regret having it warm.

 

Now I understand why you are walking through the dressing room to the bedroom. I must admit I always prefer to design a bedroom where you aren’t facing the bed directly when you enter. Only thing I will say is we have a dressing room and en suite. Every morning I go into the dressing room, get my clothes and take them into the en-suite where I get dressed after my shower.  But maybe that is just me. Actually my wife usually gets dressed in the dressing room as she tends to shower at night.

 

You can still lose the 200mm walls if you want. Pipework to baths/showers/WCs is usually 15 or 22mm. Drainage is usually 40mm. Soil pipes at 110mm are more difficult to route. I wish we had spent more time on that in our house. You can soundproof a 100mm wall in lots of ways, it is more about the detailing. I have been reading up on this as we have one wall which is quite bad for noise transmission and it is a block wall.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by AliG

[ProDave]

My feeling is that kitchen, in that position, with the pocked dividing doors, is simply too small to support an island.  That proposed design would fail Scottish building regs (would not meet the required circulation space)

 

I don't see any way to make it big enough for an island unit.

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

My feeling is that kitchen, in that position, with the pocked dividing doors, is simply too small to support an island.  That proposed design would fail Scottish building regs (would not meet the required circulation space)

 

I don't see any way to make it big enough for an island unit.

 

Are you sure you're looking at the right one? The island now has 1.2m circulation around it at any point, which feels very generous. (for one my current kitchen is much more cramped and is allowed, however it contains a movable table rather than a fixed island)

 

 

What regs do scotland require? 

[ProDave]

I don't know what the English regs say, but in Scotland you need a "circulation space" of either a 1500mm diameter circle or a 1400mm by 1800mm elipse. Which would mean you need 1.4M between your units and island.

 

I suspect our Island may go for a little walk after completion sign off........

[puntloos]

3 hours ago, AliG said:

Good morning!

 

Kitchen/utility much better now. That is what I meant about gaining the space where the wall was, but didn’t have time to draw. The door closer on our utility room was noisy and I had to have it replaced as people seemed to go in and out of that more than any other room in the house. You won't regret having it warm.

 

I have it cold today, and agreed the door sees a LOT of use, is a major source of cold, but that's sort-of a good thing? It feels a good place to store stuff, have freezers there so they don't have to struggle in summer.. but either way, the house works out a little better with it warm.. 

 

3 hours ago, AliG said:

 

Now I understand why you are walking through the dressing room to the bedroom. I must admit I always prefer to design a bedroom where you aren’t facing the bed directly when you enter. Only thing I will say is we have a dressing room and en suite. Every morning I go into the dressing room, get my clothes and take them into the en-suite where I get dressed after my shower.  But maybe that is just me. Actually my wife usually gets dressed in the dressing room as she tends to shower at night.

Yup, we both shower at night. Of course personal preference but effectively both of us need the dressing first thing we go in, and last thing we go out into the world.

 

3 hours ago, AliG said:

 

You can still lose the 200mm walls if you want. Pipework to baths/showers/WCs is usually 15 or 22mm. Drainage is usually 40mm. Soil pipes at 110mm are more difficult to route. I wish we had spent more time on that in our house. You can soundproof a 100mm wall in lots of ways, it is more about the detailing. I have been reading up on this as we have one wall which is quite bad for noise transmission and it is a block wall.

 

Not bad.. eh.. at some point 200 is fine, with the same reasoning as before (that it's easier to shrink a wall than increasing it).. 

[puntloos]

29 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I don't know what the English regs say, but in Scotland you need a "circulation space" of either a 1500mm diameter circle or a 1400mm by 1800mm elipse. Which would mean you need 1.4M between your units and island.

 

I suspect our Island may go for a little walk after completion sign off........

1400

 

I strongly doubt that's the same in england. Eg this is a new build's kitchen in my area

 

 

 

Eyeballing this, the equipt is 60cm, and the island is only halfwayish down the side.. No way that's 1400.

Even if centered, you'd have 0 - 60 - 1400 - 1000 - 1400 is already over 4.2.

 

I suspect the rules are so generous in scotland because houses and land are cheaper, so people can afford larger things?

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by puntloos

[ash_scotland88]

100mm walls? What are you planning to construct the house form?

Timber frame is typically 100mm stud work, 12.5mm plasterboard and 3mm skim, 131mm. SIPS may allow for a thinner wall, happy to be explained why it can be kept to 100mm.

Bathroom, right for keeping thicker, more so for allowing soundproofing.

 

Also wouldnt design with mm percision for allowing components/fixtures to fit "just," you're allowing for zero build tolerances.

 

You also have four different zones for wet and waste services, consider the cost and design implications of this.

[AliG]

Timber frame studwork is generally 89mm finished size studs so 114mm taped or 120mm skimmed(My walls are skimmed but it is pretty rare in Scotland)

 

It would be more normal to show stud walls on a floor plan at closer to 100mm thick not 200mm thick that was all that was suggested, not being millimetre accurate.

 

Bathroom walls are often normal thickness but have a bulkhead inside the walls, but it depends on the specific bathroom design which it seems a bit early to go into.

Edited May 26, 2020 by AliG

[tonyshouse]

Good on you to do all this stuff before you build it 

 

re planning, I think all the insulation, eco features etc should be designed in before planning.

 

my wall plates have 400mm of insulation over them. Most modern builds still only get 50mm if that. 
 

Raise the roof a bit or use false skeiling full of insulation 

[puntloos]

On 26/05/2020 at 10:24, ProDave said:

I don't know what the English regs say, but in Scotland you need a "circulation space" of either a 1500mm diameter circle or a 1400mm by 1800mm elipse. Which would mean you need 1.4M between your units and island.

 

I suspect our Island may go for a little walk after completion sign off........

 

I think I have to do 1200mm

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/540330/BR_PDF_AD_M1_2015_with_2016_amendments_V3.pdf

 

2.24b - "A minimum of 1200mm clear space is provided in front of and between all kitchen units and appliances"

 

Updated my design.

 

[Dan F]

32 minutes ago, puntloos said:

2.24b - "A minimum of 1200mm clear space is provided in front of and between all kitchen units and appliances"

 

I havn't read the whole thread, but do you specifically want to comply with M4(2) or have a planning condition that requires it? If not, then this section is optional. 1200mm is nice and wide, but some people do argue it's slightly too wide if you are using both surfaces opposite each other at the same time.  

 

Having said that, after checking our plans (our ktichen/garden/living set up is similair) we have 1200mm drawn for the long length of the island and 1100mm for the short length. (might reduce the 1200mm to 1100mm though)  We then have 1800mm on the "bar" side of the island.  

 

Other than M4(2) I don't think there is any requirement for kitchen spacing anywhere for england.  We are renting a house with a huge island and only 98cm from island to the worktop with sink.  It works, but hard for two people to pass each other and when the dishwasher is open it's a pain, 105/110 would be better.

 

Given your plans, I would reduce to 110mm, which will give you more circulation space the other side of he kitchen and through to the garden room where you'll feel it more, and this will IMO make the kitchen feel slightly bigger.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Dan Feist

[Mike]

My only additional comment would be to move the hob so that it is around 300mm away from the side of the island unit. As currently proposed pan handles are likely to project beyond the worktop edge, which could be dangerous.

 

In such a restricted kitchen I'd personally move the hob to the room perimeter, and keep the island for preparation & serving.

[puntloos]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

My only additional comment would be to move the hob so that it is around 300mm away from the side of the island unit. As currently proposed pan handles are likely to project beyond the worktop edge, which could be dangerous.

 

A fair point. I'll consider it for sure. Off the cuff I'd note that this would always be true for handles sticking out to the front. Sticking out to the side is for sure a new problem not to be taken too lightly, but I have a sense it wouldn't meaningfully increase the way to think about risk.. (the rule- 'be careful with handles' doesn't change). 

 

Quote

In such a restricted kitchen I'd personally move the hob to the room perimeter, and keep the island for preparation & serving.

 

In a way it's a stunning sentence to me - "such a restricted kitchen" given that it's 4.2x5.5m in its current design (not counting the garden room..). This is going to be my first self-built home, up until now I've never lived in a house that even had a 4x5 livingroom.. 

 

You're not wrong of course.. but .. well.. the island is *just* large enough (taking your point about handles..) to do what I hoped: 

 

Have a place to rinse, then prep, then cook ingredients, all while theoretically sitting or standing behind the island.

Edited May 30, 2020 by puntloos

[puntloos]

10 hours ago, Dan Feist said:

 

I havn't read the whole thread, but do you specifically want to comply with M4(2) or have a planning condition that requires it? If not, then this section is optional.

 

Are you sure? I don't see the words 'optional' anywhere? (update: ah, yes found it. Optional. Hm, it's still not a terrible idea but at least I don't have to bend over backwards to hit it..  )

 

Quote

1200mm is nice and wide, but some people do argue it's slightly too wide if you are using both surfaces opposite each other at the same time.  

 

With my current island design that wouldn't really be the case, but .. I'm tempted to indeed aim for 1100.. 

Quote

Having said that, after checking our plans (our ktichen/garden/living set up is similair) we have 1200mm drawn for the long length of the island and 1100mm for the short length. (might reduce the 1200mm to 1100mm though)  We then have 1800mm on the "bar" side of the island.  

Pretty similar to my current design then?

 

Quote

 

Other than M4(2) I don't think there is any requirement for kitchen spacing anywhere for england.  We are renting a house with a huge island and only 98cm from island to the worktop with sink.  It works, but hard for two people to pass each other and when the dishwasher is open it's a pain, 105/110 would be better.

 

Given your plans, I would reduce to 110mm, which will give you more circulation space the other side of he kitchen and through to the garden room where you'll feel it more, and this will IMO make the kitchen feel slightly bigger.

 

 

You might well be on to something. 

 

How movable are islands that have equipment embedded? Would it be possible to design it in such a way that it can easily be moved 10cm in any direction? Or would that overcomplicate things everywhere? Given that I'm planning a hob with 'built-in hood' I don't need the hood positioned above..

Edited May 30, 2020 by puntloos

[ProDave]

It keeps coming back to the "small" kitchen.

 

I would seriously consider making the left hand living room window a little narrower, and moving the pocket doors half a metre to the right.  I suspect that will make the flow around the island a lot better.

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

It keeps coming back to the "small" kitchen.

 

I would seriously consider making the left hand living room window a little narrower, and moving the pocket doors half a metre to the right.  I suspect that will make the flow around the island a lot better.

 

I'll take the suggestion to the architect, she what she says. IMO I've already added almost a meter to the walking space, like Dan says, at some point it simply gets 'too' spacious and you are starting to run into practical downsides. (not to mention that I want to keep my living space as large as I can. 

[Dan F]

@puntloos I'd stick to 1100 max for sure.

 

Where is the fridge?  If it's the white box I'd definitely change this so that the fridge is on the end of the run of units and is easily accessible without going round the island from dining table.  Also think about how family members will get to the fridge (e.g. to get a drink) when someone is using the sink and/or hob, it doesn't look very practical to have fridge door opposite the hob, even if you do have 1200mm.

[puntloos]

31 minutes ago, Dan Feist said:

@puntloos I'd stick to 1100 max for sure.

 

Where is the fridge?  If it's the white box I'd definitely change this so that the fridge is on the end of the run of units and is easily accessible without going round the island from dining table.  Also think about how family members will get to the fridge (e.g. to get a drink) when someone is using the sink and/or hob, it doesn't look very practical to have fridge door opposite the hob, even if you do have 1200mm.

Thanks Dan, frankly many parts of the kitchen have not been reasoned through very well. I literally just dumped a bunch of things in there, and then only modified things as I went along. 

Your point about the fridge is well made - I'll update. I haven't deeply thought about the total space, where to store everything. Sure, some things I know, e.g. dishwasher near cutlery/crockery, and probably also near the actual table, and I've given a decent amount of thought to the island. But where e.g. the kitchen devices (blender etc) should go.. dunno. Maybe I shouldn't care and wait for a kitchen designer on such details.. 

[Dan F]

Just now, puntloos said:

Thanks Dan, frankly many parts of the kitchen have not been reasoned through very well. I literally just dumped a bunch of things in there, and then only modified things as I went along. 

Your point about the fridge is well made - I'll update. I haven't deeply thought about the total space, where to store everything. Sure, some things I know, e.g. dishwasher near cutlery/crockery, and probably also near the actual table, and I've given a decent amount of thought to the island. But where e.g. the kitchen devices (blender etc) should go.. dunno. Maybe I shouldn't care and wait for a kitchen designer on such details.. 

 

It's hard to get the right balance between what you do i) pre-planning ii) pre construction drawings iii) work out within the walls you then build.   If you watch the TV programs, there are still working out where the shower/island etc. goes when the shell is already up.  We tried decide on everything that could possibily impact external form/dimensions and windows pre-planning, and have then tweaked things (include one external dimension and window sizes/positions) as well as reworking bathroom layouts better etc. prior to signing off on the timber frame.  So, I guess I'm saying, you don't need to get everything perfect before planning, just things that might have a knock on effect on other rooms/spaces and in turn impact building shape/size/windows.

 

 

[puntloos]

34 minutes ago, Dan Feist said:

It's hard to get the right balance between what you do i) pre-planning ii) pre construction drawings iii) work out within the walls you then build.   If you watch the TV programs, there are still working out where the shower/island etc. goes when the shell is already up.  We tried decide on everything that could possibily impact external form/dimensions and windows pre-planning, and have then tweaked things (include one external dimension and window sizes/positions) as well as reworking bathroom layouts better etc. prior to signing off on the timber frame.  So, I guess I'm saying, you don't need to get everything perfect before planning, just things that might have a knock on effect on other rooms/spaces and in turn impact building shape/size/windows.

 

Yep, but in particular I've been fairly (met/rid)iculous on top floor design because I figured once PP is granted I can't go moving windows around in any major way. At this point I'm quite close to happy with both my floors, so we should be good to go soonish. Very interesting though that the kitchen discussion got kicked off again and highlighted things we didn't realise before, in particular the walking space to the garden room..

[Dan F]

14 minutes ago, puntloos said:

 

Yep, but in particular I've been fairly (met/rid)iculous on top floor design because I figured once PP is granted I can't go moving windows around in any major way. At this point I'm quite close to happy with both my floors, so we should be good to go soonish. Very interesting though that the kitchen discussion got kicked off again and highlighted things we didn't realise before, in particular the walking space to the garden room..

 

TBH, if you don't have dishwasher/fridge behind the island, 1000mm wouldn't be bad at all either.  We found this site really good for standard/recommended dimensions:  https://www.houseplanshelper.com/kitchen-dimensions.html, same with bedroom cupboards, bathroom counter-top sizes etc.

[Mike]

14 hours ago, puntloos said:

In a way it's a stunning sentence to me - "such a restricted kitchen" given that it's 4.2x5.5m in its current design (not counting the garden room..).

It is a good sized room, however two sides of it are effectively corridors, so the 'core' of the kitchen is 3 x 3.86m (including the full depth of the island, which in practice wouldn't all be readily usable from the 'kitchen' side), and you have 3 entrances / exits from the core.

 

That doesn't mean that you can't have a very good and efficient kitchen, but it does need careful planning.

[puntloos]

18 hours ago, Mike said:

It is a good sized room, however two sides of it are effectively corridors, so the 'core' of the kitchen is 3 x 3.86m (including the full depth of the island, which in practice wouldn't all be readily usable from the 'kitchen' side), and you have 3 entrances / exits from the core.

 

That doesn't mean that you can't have a very good and efficient kitchen, but it does need careful planning.

I've implemented a few things a bit more carefully now but not settled yet.  The attached picture is a ray trace render of the kitchen (my first try of raytracing.. this took 3 hours to draw..)

 

It looks fine at a glance space-wise at 1100mm walking paths

 

But - I intentionally turned off all lights, to see what the program would make of 'daylight only'. Do you think this level of darkness is realistic for a kitchen in this location? (it feels a bit dark.. but clearly it's very hard to approximate what the human visual system would 'make of it' if you're actually in the room)