Modern Agricultural Barn conversion. Anybody done one?

[Roger440]

 

Having considered forever, the various options for building a house, the one thing that trips me up everytime is our requirement for a small house & big barn / shed. By big i mean circa 1500-200sqft. So big! The planning system is not really geared up for this. Maybe not impossible, but an uphill struggle at best.

 

So my options are to buy an old farm and renovate/ adapt etc. This is do-able, but as is always the case with old buildings, there will be lots of surprises, and therefore expense along the way. Whilst i can, if i have to, cope with the surprises i can do myself, im keen not to have expensive surprises as im wanting to get to the stage of not working full time sooner rather than later.

 

So, one solution is to buy one of the Q class modern barns, fill only part of it with house, leaving the rest empty. 

 

Having seen some that do fit the bill, with fully approved plans, at a practical level, once the plot/barn is bought, my thinking is, this really shouldnt be too expensive?

 

However, ive not really found much info on this. Has anyone here done similar.

 

Now i appreciate you "can" make this expensive, but my thinking is that all i actually need to do is build a nice insulated box inside said barn. It may or may not have a concrete floor, but, especially if single story, this seems like a pretty simple build? I'm not looking for anything clever. " bedrooms, kitchen/diner/lounge and may a small cost room.

 

From a building regs point of view, whilst not being an expert, is there any obvious tripping points in this, admittedly loose plan? Ie, things that one would likely encounter on a conversion of this sort versus a new build.

 

I'm also attracted by my perceived reduction in risk. as always, there can be surprises in ground works. At least with this you have a decent modern structure in place before you start, thus in my mind de-risking it. And also that i can do most of it myself. With the obvious cost savings that will bring.

 

Thoughts. Am i nuts?

 

 

[Temp]

You thinking of a metal clad barn? They aren't ideal conversion projects but I guess they are possible. Metal isn't vapour permeable so you need a strategy to avoid condensation forming on the inside of the metal (due to water vapour inside the house getting through walls to the cold metal). They can also be a bit noisy when it rains.

 

Barn floor slabs may not make adequate foundations, at least as far as building control are concerned. Will need to discuss it with them, possibly dig to confirm how thick the slab is and any reinforcement in it.

[gc100]

I am doing a barn (class q) conversion. It’s about 160m2. I suspect it will cost around 450k all in for the build including professional fees. The ‘problem’ with conversion vs a new build is everything is bespoke - all main structural work has to be done/cut/measured/fitted by hand. No standard roof strusses, floors, etc. You have the structural issues and unknowns around walls, roofs and existing floors etc. 
 

it is probably much cheaper if you can find a project that’s it’s just a steel barn. There is one down the road done like this and it was pretty straightforward as the building was only 15 years old (mine is 80).

 

I think the cheapest I could build this for would be 300k but I wanted a fairly high spec house in terms of insulation, heating and finish.

 

If you can find a fresh plot building a ‘standard’ house would be more cheap and then just purchasing an existing (or renting) a barn local to yourself.
 

 

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, gc100 said:

I am doing a barn (class q) conversion. It’s about 160m2. I suspect it will cost around 450k all in for the build including professional fees. The ‘problem’ with conversion vs a new build is everything is bespoke - all main structural work has to be done/cut/measured/fitted by hand. No standard roof strusses, floors, etc. You have the structural issues and unknowns around walls, roofs and existing floors etc. 
 

it is probably much cheaper if you can find a project that’s it’s just a steel barn. There is one down the road done like this and it was pretty straightforward as the building was only 15 years old (mine is 80).

 

I think the cheapest I could build this for would be 300k but I wanted a fairly high spec house in terms of insulation, heating and finish.

 

If you can find a fresh plot building a ‘standard’ house would be more cheap and then just purchasing an existing (or renting) a barn local to yourself.
 

 

 

The actual construction rather depends what comes up, but most of them are steel portal, with either steel cladding, or sometimes, especially the newer ones, concrete slab sides up to 1.8 meters then timber of steel cladding. You do see the odd one thats concrete portal. To all intents, an industrial unit!

 

Is yours a steel frame building? Or an old stone/wooden barn? If so, yes, i can imagine its difficult. Thats exactly why i wouldnt want to take one on, much as i rather like them, i certainly dont have £450K to do one up!

 

I already rent a barn here. To be honest, i have a problem with renting. Just the same as renting a house, one is loathe to spend money on the building to make it nice when its not yours, and ultimately you have no security that you wont be turfed out at some random point in the future. The biggest driver though is i dont want my barn/shed/toy store/workshop somewhere else. I want it at home. Which is why building a house is pretty much ruled out. 

 

If i ever bought a plot to build a house on, id want to buy something with outline permission at the very least. They dont, as a rule, come with 2000sq/ft barns included

 

So im try to use a bit of lateral thinking to achieve the desired outcome. No doubt there are more attractive building types, but, thats a compromise i can live with if we get the other things we want.

 

 

 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, Temp said:

You thinking of a metal clad barn? They aren't ideal conversion projects but I guess they are possible. Metal isn't vapour permeable so you need a strategy to avoid condensation forming on the inside of the metal (due to water vapour inside the house getting through walls to the cold metal). They can also be a bit noisy when it rains.

 

Barn floor slabs may not make adequate foundations, at least as far as building control are concerned. Will need to discuss it with them, possibly dig to confirm how thick the slab is and any reinforcement in it.

 

Cladding type isnt that important, but steel framed, yes. (as above post)

 

Having rented various steel building over the years, ive got plenty of experience at insulation, condensation etc. Hence my thoughts about effectively building a stand alone box inside the actual barn. If a bit of condensation forms on the cladding, thats no different to before you live in it.

 

Im just unsure if this is an acceptable way forward. I cant see why not, but im certainly no expert on the subject.

 

Just how expensive can a single story rectangular box with a flat roof that doesnt even need to resist rain possibly be?

[Tom]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

 

Cladding type isnt that important, but steel framed, yes. (as above post)

 

Having rented various steel building over the years, ive got plenty of experience at insulation, condensation etc. Hence my thoughts about effectively building a stand alone box inside the actual barn. If a bit of condensation forms on the cladding, thats no different to before you live in it.

 

Im just unsure if this is an acceptable way forward. I cant see why not, but im certainly no expert on the subject.

 

Just how expensive can a single story rectangular box with a flat roof that doesnt even need to resist rain possibly be?

 Why not just stick a static caravan in there? Or even something trendy with shipping containers.

 

 

2 hours ago, gc100 said:

I am doing a barn (class q) conversion. It’s about 160m2. I suspect it will cost around 450k all in for the build including professional fees. The ‘problem’ with conversion vs a new build is everything is bespoke - all main structural work has to be done/cut/measured/fitted by hand. No standard roof strusses, floors, etc. You have the structural issues and unknowns around walls, roofs and existing floors etc. 
 

 

 

 

Once you have the part Q permission it is (supposedly!) relatively straightforward to get full planning permission for the site and just knock down and rebuild. That's what we are in the process of doing now.

[Roger440]

24 minutes ago, Tom said:

 Why not just stick a static caravan in there? Or even something trendy with shipping containers.

 

 

 

Whilst i probably would, im not so sure the wife would go along with that!

[gc100]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

Once you have the part Q permission it is (supposedly!) relatively straightforward to get full planning permission for the site and just knock down and rebuild. That's what we are in the process of doing now.

 

Not necessarily. We did indeed get full PD rights - however we had to make a second application and had to present at a committee. It was granted, however all our 'normal' PD rights were removed and it came with a very very long list of things we had to adhere to and certify. You normally cannot knock down the original building as the class Q becomes invalid, which would invalidate the full permission (as its based on the fact that planning is established on the class Q permission). We had to use the existing building and not stray at all away from the form and shape of the original barn - we just made it a bit longer.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by gc100

[Tom]

17 hours ago, gc100 said:

 

Not necessarily. We did indeed get full PD rights - however we had to make a second application and had to present at a committee. It was granted, however all our 'normal' PD rights were removed and it came with a very very long list of things we had to adhere to and certify. You normally cannot knock down the original building as the class Q becomes invalid, which would invalidate the full permission (as its based on the fact that planning is established on the class Q permission). We had to use the existing building and not stray at all away from the form and shape of the original barn - we just made it a bit longer.

 

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the restrictions of a Class Q change of use, having just gone through the process myself. You certainly can't knock the existing building down as it has to be a conversion, therefore you have to use the existing structure . What I'm suggesting though, is that now you have the change of use granted you apply for full planning permission for a replacement dwelling - which will mean you CAN knock it down and start again. There are several such successful applications near me that have done exactly that. There is planning case-law as a precedent: search for Mansell v Tonbridge and Malling BC [2017] EWCA Civ 1314. In essence it seems the argument is that as the conversion to residential has already been established, and there being no reason why this conversion can't go ahead, a full planning application would be for a replacement dwelling - and therefore would be looked upon more favourably.

Certainly worth exploring in my opinion (if you haven't already), not least as starting from the ground up will be significantly less hassle but the more favourable tax implications for a new build v conversion.

[Simplysimon]

@Roger440what's the problem regarding planning permission for a barn? we built a 60x30 steel portal frame first, stored everything in it then started the house

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

@Roger440what's the problem regarding planning permission for a barn? we built a 60x30 steel portal frame first, stored everything in it then started the house

 

Nobody believes its basically because i have out of control hobbies.

 

Immediately the conclusion is "running a business" so on a residential plot, thats a no no. The sheer size is likely to be a problem, but i guess thats rather more location specific. 2 of my near neighbours had multiple rejections of a straightforward triple garage. To high, too big, out of keeping, wrong location, too visible etc. etc. Indeed the 2nd one in the end used the plans from the first to get it through on the basis it was the same and they were immediate neighbours. 

 

At a slightly more practical level, nobody is selling a plot with planning for a big barn. Which means that i would have to try and "add" the barn to the planning permission afterwards. Given the difficulties in doing so, thats way to high risk post purchase. If they refuse, you are stuffed at that point.

 

 How on earth did you justify a building like that on a new build? Is this easier in scotland?

 

But regardless, i couldnt and wouldnt buy any kind of plot unless it was cast iron that i could build one.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Roger440

[gc100]

Just curious, but what are your hobbies that need so

much room? Cars/trucks restoration?

[Roger440]

6 hours ago, gc100 said:

Just curious, but what are your hobbies that need so

much room? Cars/trucks restoration?

 

Cars primarily. (currently 9). Do all my own restoration etc. Lots of gear.  Woodwork stuff. Really want some space for a model railway too longer term.

 

Obviously i could abandon all my hobbies and the problem would go away. But im not ready to accept defeat just yet.

 

But i dont want a big house. Just a 2 bed bungalow would be fine.

[Roger440]

Nobody else got any thoughts on this?  

 

 

[gc100]

23 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Nobody else got any thoughts on this?  

 

 

 

Move to the countryside away from the South, and buy/build a bungalow in a village, buy an acre of land of a local farmer and build a farm/commercial building once you ok'd with the local council (before buying) - or just buy an old barn off a farmer locally approached directly.

 

Thats what I would do if I really wanted to own the barn and wanted a low risk approach.

 

Location is key for you - away from people, towns, and ideally out in the countryside will ease your ability to build barn. 

 

Though financially I still think it cheaper to rent a barn/space. I know plenty of people locally who have rented theirs for over 20/30 years straight now for their workshops. 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by gc100

[Ferdinand]

On 24/04/2020 at 09:33, Roger440 said:

Nobody else got any thoughts on this?  

 

 

 

I think you are making this more difficult than it actually may be.

 

The series several years ago Meet the Planners had one like this ... chap who wanted something to keep his vehicle collection in went through the normal processes and got it.

 

I think what you want is something with say half an acre and preferably some trees round it, where you can put it behind the house. If you meet the planning policy tests then I do not see how they can refuse.

 

Or something with a big old stable or workshop, which I seem to see everywhere. Especially where people have been running businesses from home. There have always been a lot of sole traders running their businesses like this. My dad's last place of business was a 3000 sqft workshop build over the back gardens of 3 terraced houses; we sold it for 35k in 2010, as it would have had a negative value as a plot for a terrace of 3 houses.

 

Or could you get a defunct Social Club or shop?

 

The transaction will be tricky if you are requiring the seller give you 6 months to get PP. Why would they?

 

When we were in the old Hall (small village manor), my parents bought the bungalow next door (on half acre) to prevent the restaurant the other side buying it, and a few years ago it was sold on to a chap who had 2 traction engines, because he thought he would be able to build a big workshop / garage so he could move them from the industrial unit he was renting.

 

The other type of place that might come up is a small petrol station site - these will be becoming available more.

 

I think refusal on the grounds of "we think you will run a business" is a red herring; probably not a relevant planning matter if your application states that the purpose is for a personally owned car collection. Such an assumption is imo unlawful if there is no evidence (and against the rules of procedure to make), and would get quashed on Appeal.

 

F   

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Roger440]

On 25/04/2020 at 09:25, gc100 said:

 

Move to the countryside away from the South, and buy/build a bungalow in a village, buy an acre of land of a local farmer and build a farm/commercial building once you ok'd with the local council (before buying) - or just buy an old barn off a farmer locally approached directly.

 

Thats what I would do if I really wanted to own the barn and wanted a low risk approach.

 

Location is key for you - away from people, towns, and ideally out in the countryside will ease your ability to build barn. 

 

Though financially I still think it cheaper to rent a barn/space. I know plenty of people locally who have rented theirs for over 20/30 years straight now for their workshops. 

 

 

What you say makes sense. Most thing pre-existng are leftover bits of old farms, but getting ever harder thanks to class Q. Realistically north devon is as close as i can get and buy what i want. And thats marginal. Generally older houses, which to make efficient and low maintenance will require significant expenditure.

 

Hence the attraction of a large Q class barn. Everything under one roof.

 

I currently rent a barn, but im in the south east. Over 20 years that would be a lot of cash. While im working its do-able, but i plan on semi retirement in a few years max, at which point it becomes definitely non-doable.

 

Combine with the fact its not on site, i cant really make it the way i want it, and i have zero security of tenure, makes for a pretty unappealing long term plan.

[Roger440]

On 25/04/2020 at 09:48, Ferdinand said:

 

I think you are making this more difficult than it actually may be.

 

The series several years ago Meet the Planners had one like this ... chap who wanted something to keep his vehicle collection in went through the normal processes and got it.

 

I think what you want is something with say half an acre and preferably some trees round it, where you can put it behind the house. If you meet the planning policy tests then I do not see how they can refuse.

 

Or something with a big old stable or workshop, which I seem to see everywhere. Especially where people have been running businesses from home. There have always been a lot of sole traders running their businesses like this. My dad's last place of business was a 3000 sqft workshop build over the back gardens of 3 terraced houses; we sold it for 35k in 2010, as it would have had a negative value as a plot for a terrace of 3 houses.

 

Or could you get a defunct Social Club or shop?

 

The transaction will be tricky if you are requiring the seller give you 6 months to get PP. Why would they?

 

When we were in the old Hall (small village manor), my parents bought the bungalow next door (on half acre) to prevent the restaurant the other side buying it, and a few years ago it was sold on to a chap who had 2 traction engines, because he thought he would be able to build a big workshop / garage so he could move them from the industrial unit he was renting.

 

The other type of place that might come up is a small petrol station site - these will be becoming available more.

 

I think refusal on the grounds of "we think you will run a business" is a red herring; probably not a relevant planning matter if your application states that the purpose is for a personally owned car collection. Such an assumption is imo unlawful if there is no evidence (and against the rules of procedure to make), and would get quashed on Appeal.

 

F   

Thanks for your post. Food for thought.

 

Ive looked at a few roadside things like old garages etc. Whilst id probably go for that, my wife wont, and too be honest, now i dont have road noise any more, im not sure i want that back in my life! Yes, i know, i probably dont have enough money to adopt that point of view!

 

As per my post above, most pre-existing stuff is invariably a major project looking for somewhere to happen. I dont mind work, up to a point. I suspect, ultimately, its what i end up with.

 

I just fancy the modern ag barn idea. But im struggling to get a grasp on likely conversion costs. New build is releatively well understood by comparison

 

 

[Ferdinand]

My ballpark guestimate for a portal frame industrial type building is £500-600 per sqm plus or minus 20%.

 

I haven't built one, but I looked into them when my gym was looking for a home.

 

Some of our building contractors on here may have a better idea.

 

Ferdinand

[Roger440]

11 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

My ballpark guestimate for a portal frame industrial type building is £500-600 per sqm plus or minus 20%.

 

I haven't built one, but I looked into them when my gym was looking for a home.

 

Some of our building contractors on here may have a better idea.

 

Ferdinand

 

Thats quite a low figure. My thinking was not dis-similar as the structural elements are taken care of. At those sorts of numbers its a very do-able proposition.

[gc100]

It all depends what your budget is which you havent shared. Looking around my way something like this would fill your need perhaps https://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-91578029.html

 

[Ferdinand]

29 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Thats quite a low figure. My thinking was not dis-similar as the structural elements are taken care of. At those sorts of numbers its a very do-able proposition.

 

That needs some proper research - like getting a few quotes :-).

 

Buggers to insulate.

[Roger440]

8 minutes ago, gc100 said:

It all depends what your budget is which you havent shared. Looking around my way something like this would fill your need perhaps https://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-91578029.html

 

 

Budget is circa 450-500K for everything, be that, new build and barn, old farm and barn + refurb, modern AG barn + conversion. Norfolk is doable, as is west country. Really dont want to go north.

 

Thats quite a good deal on the face of it. Had the whole thing been enclosed that would fit the bill perfectly. As its only actually half the 18x18 its a no go to use as a workshop as well.

 

If ferdinand numbers are right, conversion would be 60-70K! Given it probably has no services, id guess that could go up quite a bit. Workshop aside on this particular one, it is, otherwise, ideal. What a great place to live.

[Roger440]

1 minute ago, Ferdinand said:

 

That needs some proper research - like getting a few quotes :-).

 

Buggers to insulate.

 

Hence my original question of simply building a box inside.

 

Ive insulated 2 of these type buildings. As you observe, a bit of a mission to do.

[Ferdinand]

2 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Budget is circa 450-500K for everything, be that, new build and barn, old farm and barn + refurb, modern AG barn + conversion. Norfolk is doable, as is west country. Really dont want to go north.

 

Thats quite a good deal on the face of it. Had the whole thing been enclosed that would fit the bill perfectly. As its only actually half the 18x18 its a no go to use as a workshop as well.

 

If ferdinand numbers are right, conversion would be 60-70K! Given it probably has no services, id guess that could go up quite a bit. Workshop aside on this particular one, it is, otherwise, ideal. What a great place to live.

 

My numbers were very much estimates, so may be well off, and are several years old.

 

But ask in the right places and numbers should be relatively easy to find.