How much can I build on site?

[Stones]

2 hours ago, Sensus said:

 

Planners have absolutely no design skills or training... you might as well have let a reasonably bright schoolchild old loose with the design 

 

Bit of a sweeping statement ?  You qualified / explained the 'training' part which is fair enough, but are you seriously saying, that of the entire cadre of planning officers in this country, none of them have any design skills?  And what do you actually mean by design skills? 

 

Being trained in something doesn't necessarily make you good at it or an expert.  Equally some people have natural flare and ability, and I'm quite sure that it applies to design skills as much as any other walk of life.  Are you saying only architects (or those with architectural training of some sort) are capable of producing a 'good' design?

 

 

 

 

[Stones]

Fair enough 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, Stones said:

it of a sweeping statement ?  You qualified / explained the 'training' part which is fair enough, but are you seriously saying, that of the entire cadre of planning officers in this country, none of them have any design skills?  And what do you actually mean by design skills?

 

Being trained in something doesn't necessarily make you good at it or an expert.  Equally some people have natural flare and ability, and I'm quite sure that it applies to design skills as much as any other walk of life.  Are you saying only architects (or those with architectural training of some sort) are capable of producing a 'good' design?

 

At my previous house, the first thing I wanted to do was build a garage. It was an awkward corner site with the house set well back on the plot, meaning only a tiny back garden and a huge side and front garden.  I wanted to build the garage on the side garden, the planners wanted me to squash the garage into the tiny back garden.

 

The point of that ramble is when talking to the planners about the garage, I had described it as "built of concrete block and rendered". The planning officer just said "it doesn't matter what you cover it with, it will still look like a pre fabricated garage"  It didn't matter how much I tried to explain that concrete blocks are like large bricks laid by a bricklayer, she just could not accept it was not a concrete sectional pre fab garage with a bit of render slapped on top.  That is a very good example of a planner not having the slightest clue about buildings.

 

My garage was refused because it was outside the building lines.

 

I appealed, myself, on the basis that other adjacent houses were built directly fronting the highway and in relation to those it would not look out of place.  A very well written summary by the appeal inspector agreed and made a point that the garage being closer to the road than the house formed a link between the old and the new and complimented the street scene, and formed beneficial sense of enclosure.

 

Just really saying that some planners have not got a clue about buildings, and it is definitely worth appealing if you have a gut feeling that it is the right thing.

 

[Gone West]

16 hours ago, Sensus said:

Planners have absolutely no design skills or training...

 

 

At my LPA the Head of Planning told me that there were no planners with design qualifications and as a result asked the Conservation Officer to look at my application. He also told me one planner may approve an application and the same application not be approved by another planner in the same office. He told me it was subjective. In my experience an accepted planning application is first looked at a few days before the eight weeks is up and if it looks reasonable and there are no objections it's approved. Anything out of the ordinary and you're in for a long wait. It's not rocket science it's all down to the planner allocated to your application and whether they had a good nights sleep or not. It makes a joke of Planning Policies and it's a shambles in some LPAs.

[Barney12]

I agree and in my case I'm on my third officer (4 if you include the head of planning that has picked up the file on a temporary basis twice now) as the first two left on long term sick!

They are absolute masters at manipulating the supposed "time frames" for applications too.

 

 

[Gimp]

I agree with Sensus, I didn't wish to offend Joe but I though similar when I gave the D&A Statement a brief view over the other day, its not all bad and some stuff of value is there but in some places the signs that its not a planning guy writing it really show, just kind of value statements with little weight. I'm not assessing it with much in the way of knowledge that I hold but when comparing it to the D&A statement of the ex-planning guy for the previous OPP that the previous owner obtained the difference can be seen. Like said though unfortunately the planning guy was unfortunately not as good when it came to design - I kid you not when I tell you the guy had incorporated a 5 meter high retaining wall into the design onto which the small dormer bungalow would be built and a coach long parking layby at the front, lol. God knows how thick and deep that retaining wall would have to be let alone the cost of SE calcs. The owner doesn't seem to have proceeded to FFP or gave up when consulting others on it since the ex-planning guy only does to OPP - convenient? So then the previous owner no doubt had to take it to an Architect/Architectural Technologist/SE who probably told him the impracticality of the design, is my guess at what happened and next thing land on the market to be snapped up cheaply by yours truly.

 

This of course would have been fine for ex-planner guy who was just responsible for getting OPP had played his part, gets his fee and wash his hands of it. The benefit for me is that I can rehash the D&A statement as much of it will still be relevant to mine  and adjust for the issue over the chalet dormer build by demonstrating how a house build would be more appropriate. Doing it myself is just my way, I think I am equipped to take it on but I can see why some ex-planners from the LPA are sought after in the Architecture/Planning Environment as on the planning side they will know all the boxes to tick.      

[joe90]

Gimp, certainly no offence taken whatsoever, yes my arguments may have been lightweight but at the end of the day I won my appeal on all points. I proved before the appeal that arguments the council had regarding our site were based on opinion not facts and they backed down because I had evidence to prove them wrong and I gave this information to the appeal officer. I proved that the LPA,s argument regarding the bats disagreed with the ecology expert that the LPA made me pay for and the inspector agreed that the ecology expert was better qualified to make a judgment. I argued that the proposal was reasonable for the site and once she had visited the site and saw the area she agreed with me. I argued ( wrongly) that the planning policy DVT4 was unfair but in fact she stated that our proposal did fit with the planning policy and intimated that the LPA wrongly applied their own policy.

 

simplistically, I am trying to say don't be afraid of appealing, it can be done cheaply and there is a very high success rate amongst  appeals.  I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide.

[jack]

Useful stuff, thanks Sensus.

 

I think what was interesting about Joe's case is that the council made some clear errors (errors obvious enough that a non-professional - no offence Joe! - could spot them).  It's concerning that people who are paid to know and implement the law could not only get it so wrong, but would then spend taxpayer money fighting it.  

 

Bear in mind also that Joe did, in fact, engage a professional at the start of the process.  Given how far they got him, I can understand why he took it upon himself to take the process further.

 

Also, Joe already had planning permission to build something.  He cleverly used the same footprint for that as for the application he was appealing, so he was able to crack on knowing that whatever the outcome of the appeal, he'd still be able to build, and the appeal wouldn't be holding him up.  

 

Perhaps not general advice to go it alone, but I suspect each case needs to be looked at on its merits.

 

I've also little doubt that there're planning consultants and planning consultants.  In our case (and I think this is pretty common), there's a planning consultancy directly across the road from the planning department, and it's staffed mostly with ex-planners, including the ex-head of the department.  I personally know two people who've employed them with huge success. Poachers turned gamekeepers (or is it the other way around? )

 

[PeterW]

This week I've just spoken to my planning officer - who is covering for another who is off sick, who was covering for a vacancy - and had a very pragmatic discussion which culminated in me being asked if I had any jobs going as they had 60 cases on the go currently ...!!!

 

and we think we are stressed just building one.....!

[jack]

1 hour ago, Sensus said:

At least if we get a refusal on our applications, we can resubmit or appeal, as many times as we wish. The poor communities who have had bad development approved upon them have very little redress... the only option open to them (that of Judicial Review) is weak, complicated and expensive.

 

The town I live in has been fighting a horrible piece of over-development in its centre for the last 15 years or so.  It's had planning approval for years, followed by year after year of amendment to the point where the current scheme bears no resemblance at all to the original.  They then faked a start so that they could avoid the planning permission expiring.  It's finally gotten to the point where judicial review is the only option, because the council (which, of course, is not located in this town) simply won't follow the law.

 

This is the same council that has recently admitted to separately extending a car park and building a new changing room for a council sports ground without seeking planning permission.  But it's okay, because they're applying for retrospective planning permission!  Oh, and the new car park breaches a covenant under which the land was donated to the council after the second world war.  

[Ian]

Gimp, if you are considering employing a Planning Consultant in Wales I can highly recommend a company called Owen Devenport. They are based in North Wales (I'm not sure whereabouts in Wales you are).

 

http://www.owendevenport.co.uk/

 

About a year ago they helped me get PP for a new build house on a site I own in an AONB in N Wales. It took over 2 years and an appeal as the LA Planning dept opposed us at every step of the way but in the end we got everything we wanted. Although I'm an architect there's absolutely no way I would have got PP without their expert guidance and advice.

 

Their fees were very reasonable and they were very professional.

 

Ive been lurking on the Forum (and the other one) for a long while and gleaned lots of useful info from here so it's nice to be able to contribute something myself. I'm now about 3 or 4 weeks from completion of our build and looking forward to moving in.

 

Ian

ps - I've got no ties/links to Owen Devenport but believe strongly in recommending great companies when I come across them.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Ian

[Ferdinand]

The point about Ex Planners from an LA is that they can easily be either Aristotle or Mr Magoo.

 

What you should get is someone who knows either the law, the local policy and the hot buttons of the staff, which is why previous successful appeals and applications of the same type are a key place to research.

 

Our previous Director of Planning went to be a senior manager in a planning consultancy, and I would characterise the guy as a pretentious t*sser. SAw one application he had coordinated for a difficult Housing project and there were a series of schoolboy errors and some basic documents not even included.

 

We paid a large sum for our Planning Consultant as the Local Plan was up in the air and we needed to argue the presumption for susrptainable development principle in the face of its sudden exclusion from the next version of the Local Plan. Happy to forward copies to those interested as a different example to the one linked in this thread, but I am still not willing to link publicly to our development. We also won on Appeal. IT was a Housing Estate site, not a single dwelling, but an interesting contrast.

 

Our PC routinely appears in Public Enquiries and Courts, and would be an excellent barrister.

 

I also wrote about selecting consultants etc at some length here:

DIsagree with the comments about underpaid public sector in general. E.g. Our Doctors and Teachers are some of the best paid in the world.

 

Ferdinand

Edited November 25, 2016 by Ferdinand