'Secure by Design' - how secure?

[jamiehamy]

Hi all, 

 

Without going into too much detail - if it's possible to remove glass from a unit that is sold and labelled 'Secure by Design' with only a flat bladed tool and a suction cup - that's can't surely be SBD?

 

In our long running saga, some glass was replaced yesterday - and on some of the units, this was all that was needed to get the glass out - from the outside. No extreme force required to pull the glass out once the beading was removed. 

 

Glazier was not familiar with the SBD standard per se, but said he would have expected my type of unit to have the glass secured by a special double sided tape which would make it extremely hard to pull the glass out. As it is - it's a rubber seal and silicon type seal at each corner to hold it in place then a bead presses into the side of the frame. . 

 

Can anyone offer any insight to this?

 

Thanks, J

 

(Added pic - the bead slots into the groove on the left, the glass presses against the grey seal - and is held in place with the white silicon type seal on each corner. )

Edited November 6, 2016 by jamiehamy

[Onoff]

BIG security issue as far as I'm concerned!

 

A mate bought a house with his girlfriend some years back. They were moving stuff in from their respective flats when she noticed some dirt on the new carpet. Blaming him they went to grab the Dyson which wasn't there so ensued the "I told you to bring it!" row. Thinking he'd put a CD on, the big stack he's brought wasn't there...nor the TV etc. It was only later that day he noticed the beading on one of the externally glazed DG units hadn't been put back properly by the BURGLARS when they exited via the window! This was after wandering round, blaming each other for the missing stuff. He then went round removing all the beads himself and siliconed the units in before putting the beading back. Also some dirt on the window sill inside!

Edited November 7, 2016 by Onoff

[jamiehamy]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

BIG security issue as far as I'm concerned!

 

A mate bought a house with his girlfriend some years back. They were moving stuff in from their respective flats when she noticed some dirt on the new carpet. Blaming him they went to grab the Dyson which wasn't there so ensued the "I told you to bring it!" row. Thinking he'd put a CD on, the big stack he's brought wasn't there...nor the TV etc. It was only later that day he noticed the beading on one of the externally glazed DG units hadn't been put back properly by the BURGLARS when they exited via the window! This was after wandering round, blaming each other for the missing stuff. He then went round removing all the beads himself and siliconed the units in before putting the beading back. Also some dirt on the window sill inside!

Arch! That's exactly the scenario I had on mind but thought I might be over thinking it... I've emailed the MD and he's already got back saying he'll look into it.  

[ProDave]

If they are fitted properly, you won't get the window out from the outside without breaking it.

 

We had the same at the previous house, Initially I was somewhat disappointed when I saw how the glass was going in, but they assured me the double sided foam tape sticks so well the window would break if your tried to remove it from the outside.

 

That was put to the test. we returned from a holiday once to find the patio door, all the bead was removed and sitting on the deck, but the glass was still stuck firmly in.  The Police logged it as "criminal damage" rather than attempted break in.
 

[Onoff]

My mate's windows DIDN'T have the double sided foam tape in I should have added.

[jamiehamy]

Thanks both,  that's helpful.  Safe to say I'm 'scunnered' with these windows... 

[PeterW]

DS foam glazing tape is an industry standard now so not using it is very odd !

 

http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/31/3199ps3i1a20.08.2012.pdf

 

 

[AliG]

I found this on the web

 

PAS 24:2012 is applicable to new window and doorsets as manufactured and prior to installation.

It is only applicable to complete window and doorsets or a range thereof.

The ability to gain entry by manipulation of a lock cylinder is addressed in PAS 24:2012. Entry by deliberate breaking of the glass, lock picking using tools only available to a locksmith or by attack on the frame fixing methods is not addressed. PAS 24:2012 does include a requirement for the infill medium material.

 

It isn't really clear from what I read, but the PAS24 or BS7950 standards seem to not cover taking out the glazing, but instead attacks on the frames, glass and locks using tools that an opportunistic thief may have. I don't think this includes suckers.

 

Now of course any sensible person would realise that externally glazed windows need some kind of security sealant to prevent glass removal and most window companies use this in windows that they sell as SBD. But it is not clear to me that they have to. Still doesn't mean I wouldn't insist on it.

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, AliG said:

[...]

 

Now of course any sensible person would realise that externally glazed windows need some kind of security sealant to prevent glass removal and most window companies use this in windows that they sell as SBD. But it is not clear to me that they have to. Still doesn't mean I wouldn't insist on it.

 

I am. I didn't. I'm grateful.

[PeterW]

SBD and the PAS standards talk about "glazing manipulation" and where you cannot remove without tools etc or leaving marks on the frames.I'm just very surprised that some manufacturers don't use the glazing tapes...!

 

You also have to be very careful with SBD and Part Q - SBD will not accept foreign standards, yet Part Q will. 

[AliG]

Thanks for brining this to people's attention Jamie.

 

My windows have been agreed on and will be ordered in the next week or two, so it's a little late to change.

 

I will check this though, they say they use "security sealant"

 

I notice that if you look at the various windows people have on the web or their window security they often show the frames being attacked not actually someone trying to remove the panes.

 

I had a quick look around. I noticed that Velfac say they use internal glazing in their alu clad windows which I think is unusual.

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, AliG said:

I had a quick look around. I noticed that Velfac say they use internal glazing in their alu clad windows which I think is unusual.

 

Internal glazing used to be the "secure standard" in uPVC nearly 20 years ago. All it relies on is the correct use of the profiles - most uPVC used a "Z" profile, where internally glazed needs a "T" profile normally used for mullions etc. 

 

 

[AliG]

My current house has some externally glazed windows. I was quite surprised when I saw it and this has made me worry about security since then.

 

We had an attempted break in a couple of years ago by breaking the euro cylinder lock on french doors. I have replaced the locks or handles with more secure versions. Apparently this is the number one method of breaking into houses as developers use cheap easily broken locks.

 

My parents had a break in by someone simply smashing the patio doors. I am going to have laminated glass.

 

Just trying to cover all the obvious bases. You won't keep everyone out but these seem likely pretty simple things to do.

[jamiehamy]

I first became curious when the glass fell out the kitchen window during transit - two beads had come loose and the glass partially came out.  It was only when I watched the glazier remove the glass from a side panel I realised something was simply not right. 

 

I will see what the window company say,  but also have contacted my BCO for his view - my architect told me ages ago he was quite a stickler for windows and he in theory is my ultimate decision maker as to whether the current install is acceptable. If he wouldn't approve,  then really the windows are not fit for purpose. 

 

I'll update when I have more. 

[NSS]

I have to admit to being quite surprised that anyone still makes externally glazed windows.

[ProDave]

On 11/7/2016 at 18:20, NSS said:

I have to admit to being quite surprised that anyone still makes externally glazed windows.

My shiny new Rationel triple glazed window are externally glazed.
 

[iSelfBuild]

I can't quite make out the photos. My aluminium clad windows are externally glazed, when I spoke to competitors about how they remove the glass they all said you smash it out... yet the way we do it allows achievable removal - but only when the opening sash is tilted/turned inside the room or ideally removed off the hinges. Still... on a fixed pane that has been installed it's pretty tough and on these we have an internal timber bead that can in practice be removed without damaging the window and the beads. But I would reckon if any of the glazing ever did fail I would have to send out new beads on these ones as they would need persuading out and it's easier to just tap out the beads and damage them and keep well clear of the surrounding frame because that can't be easily replaced. Interesting regarding the security sealant/tape though... I must start specifying this for future projects.

 

It shows it pretty well on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KppeWfx-ZXA 4 minutes in.

[jamiehamy]

Quick update - spoke to my Bro and he advised that it is my responsibility to ensure the windows meet the required spec - however he would expect externally glazed units to have tape and that I should insist on this. He also told me if I was struggling to get the window company to do this he could write me a letter. 

 

The window company have now said they will remove all the glass and install the tape. 

 

Not sure when - biggest glass panels needs replaced and as I suspected,  all the cladding is the wrong colour and they can't get a match for the sills... 

 

What are people's thoughts on a company supplying units labelled 'Secure by Design' when the blatantly are not? 

[PeterW]

It's breach of contract and misrepresentation at best, and fraud at worst ..!

 

I would normally suggest trading standards however as it's a big ticket item I would go for a quick solicitors letter - TS have become a toothless wonder unless it's a public interest issue

[Monty Gerhardy]

On 11/6/2016 at 21:51, jamiehamy said:

 

Without going into too much detail - if it's possible to remove glass from a unit that is sold and labelled 'Secure by Design' with only a flat bladed tool and a suction cup - that's can't surely be SBD?

 

It can. You’d have to be within the building to use a tool. Secured by Design intention is to make it difficult to break in – short of bank like security measures, it’s not possible or economical to make a domestic window totally burglar ‘proof’. The SBD testing is based around the attack methods that the typical UK burglar utilizes. They don’t typically carry glass suction lifters…. or be inside the building trying to remove the glazing.

[PeterW]

16 minutes ago, Monty Gerhardy said:

You’d have to be within the building to use a tool

 

I think that's the whole point - these are externally glazed so it's just a case of a blunt tool in this instance. 

[Monty Gerhardy]

On 11/7/2016 at 09:00, PeterW said:

DS foam glazing tape is an industry standard now so not using it is very odd !

Nothing particularly odd about it - but there are other more effective methods.

 

On 11/7/2016 at 09:58, PeterW said:

You also have to be very careful with SBD and Part Q - SBD will not accept foreign standards, yet Part Q will. 

Part Q doesn’t reference any foreign standards. SBD accepts the (BS) EN 1627 RC2 category for windows prevalent ‘in Europe’ with the simple addition of at least one pane of 6.8mm laminated glass.. and a few more items for RC3 compliant doors.

 

On 11/7/2016 at 10:03, PeterW said:

All it relies on is the correct use of the profiles - most uPVC used a "Z" profile, where internally glazed needs a "T" profile normally used for mullions etc. 

 

And some of those beads could be 'bumped' from outside if you knew how to do it...

 

On 11/7/2016 at 18:20, NSS said:

I have to admit to being quite surprised that anyone still makes externally glazed windows.

I’m surprised anybody building in an area of severe or very severe wind driven rain would choose anything less, particularly if using timber or alu-clad timber windows. NHBC are not keen on anything less in such circumstances.

On 11/18/2016 at 14:40, jamiehamy said:

The window company have now said they will remove all the glass and install the tape. 

 

What are people's thoughts on a company supplying units labelled 'Secure by Design' when the blatantly are not? 

Interesting course of action… as those windows are not designed for a security glazing tape ! It’s clear from the picture that there is an EPDM wedge gasket installed where the tape would be going. You should find out who the manufacturer is and ask them. The clowns supplying the windows are clueless.

From the picture I’m assuming that there will be a triple-glazed IGU going into the frame. It would not be un-common for a large unit to be delivered ‘dry-glazed’. This allows the IGU to be temporarily removed from the frame upon delivery to site. The frame can then be easily fitted and fixed and the IGU is then installed and secured. I would assume that in this instance the IGU is secured by a manufacturer specified adhesive mastic in the corners and at regular intermediate points. This would be perfectly acceptable for an SBD compliant window.

If you suspect the windows are not as described then contact Secured by Design directly. It’s not unknown for some suppliers to have a relaxed definition of what constitutes an SBD licensed window. Plod runs the scheme and takes a dim view of people taking the piss out of them and customers. have your architect demand the manufacturers SBD schedule and a statement from their SBD recognised 'Certification Authority' that the specific unit in question is licensed. Good luck.

[ToughButterCup]

I'm bumping this thread out of pure self-interest: our windows order date approaches.

 

My lads partner is a CSI. I'll talk to her and see how much information I can find out  about gaining access through windows: and strategies for making it harder. It might be that she can tell me more about how thieves cut themselves on the way in and out - but it's worth a shot innit?

[Jeremy Harris]

I did carefully check the spec of our doors and windows before buying.  The glazing is fitted internally, against a rubber seal on the outer alloy frame, so there's no way the glazing units can be removed.  Coupled with multipoint latches that makes all the windows pretty secure, as it's damned hard to cut holes in, or break, thick, 3G glazing.  The doors have the same glazing method, and my main concern there was the locks, as Eurolocks are notorious weak points, with a number of very serious design failings, well known to the criminal fraternity.  Although the lock barrels supplied were approved as being secure, I took one out to check and wasn't that happy with it.  It was an anti-bump, anti-snap, design, but the barrel didn't have protection from the cam coming out once the anti-snap sections had been broken off. 

 

The locks I fitted weren't cheap, but they have an extremely hard, non-removable, cam, with a hardened face that's exposed if a scrote does get as far as snapping the outer sections off, meaning the lock still can't be turned.  When I was looking around there were only two or three makes of lock that were as secure, and which carried the BS logo with the three diamonds above it, so it's worth checking.  Even quite expensive door and window suppliers seem to not fit really good Eurolock barrels, and these are really the major weak point that needs to be addressed.  If in doubt, just search YouTube for lock snapping or bumping videos - it's scary as to how incredibly quickly a scrote can gain entry this way.

Edited February 16, 2017 by JSHarris
typo "rudder" when I meant "rubber" - damned spell checker............

[dogman]

From my experience the weak point of a door is often the frame. We have all seen the police trying to get into the local pharmaceutical supplier and how often do you see the whole frame come out.

Police have several types of key. The best is a hydraulic ram that takes the whole frame and door out in one go. You do not see this one on tv that often.

Windows - its normally just left open and the local property relocation specialists go house to house looking. Old style sliders used to lift off runners but this has now been designed out. I have seen dozens of more professional burglaries( golf shops usually) where they have removed the window glass all are externally glazed. remember they don't worry about damage.

As for lock bumping it is possible but i have never seen it happen. 

My advice is to fix the frames into the structure the best you can. 

Use solid panel doors. A plastic lower panel will just kick in.

Use multipoint locks with bs standard cylinders. Putting a £300 Banham lock on a door states i have something of value

Do not have a letter box as this is a weak point. Used for both for fishing and opening the door.

Glass will always break even laminated 3g. However it is difficult as it has to be cut out. I have seen it once a 9 inch concrete block and then sawn out by hand.

 

Most people think its the police pushing this but it is actually the insurance companies.