READERS BEWARE. RANT. Architects and other Building related Pen Pushers.

[Ferdinand]

Stats - usually Planning is relatively straightforward:

 

Quote

Between January to March 2019, district level planning authorities in England: • received 111,300 applications for planning permission, down five per cent on the corresponding quarter of 2018;

• granted 81,500 decisions, down seven per cent from the same quarter in 2018; this is equivalent to 88 per cent of decisions, unchanged from the same quarter of 2018;

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812867/Planning_Applications_January_to_March_2019_-_statistical_release.pdf

[Patrick]

3 minutes ago, Sensus said:

 

Obviously, another problem is that whilst £250K may be an enormous sum of money to you, to an Architect (in terms of contract value), it's small beer, and if he's dealing exclusively with projects at that sort of scale, it's going to be maybe one of a couple of dozen that he's handling in any given year. To you, it's (usually) the biggest thing by far that's happening in your life, and you expect everyone else to share your level of engagement and commitment.

This is very well put the exact problem.

I was (before starting off the whole exercise) under the impression that there are Architects that exclusivley cater for small self builders and have a REALLY good understanding of what is needed. The sort of stuff you mention above. I know a few of them, again, abroad, 1 of them buidl my mums house, others building Friends houses.WITH them.

I was given the impression that the architects i spoke to before i started off "doing self builds all the time, massive experience in all sorts of custom made houses" (their words) , when in reality , none of them have done more than 20-30 in total.

 

This was probably my fault for not finding the right match , but it seems it is also a wider theme in the industry (*from your feedback) and self build is just too exotic (even the word is Horses***)

 

 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Sensus said:

Commercial clients very much do simply stand back and let you get on with it, yes. You're given a brief. You create a design that complies with that brief. Everyone is happy.

 

 

I had an interesting time working with a commercial architect.  My last job was managing a rationalisation programme that included building a new office and lab building (a ~£96M project).  The architects had included elements in the design that we wanted, areas where we hoped that people would be encouraged to meet and interact (a big problem with science is that people tend to work tightly within their own discipline).  The large central atrium that divided the lab part from the office part, and included things like a cafe and DIY refreshment areas, had small groups of comfortable seats, but was, in the main, a pretty open space.  It gave the building a nice light and airy feel.

 

We wanted to be able to measure how well all the various parts of what was a major rationalisation programme (it included closing several fairly large research establishments and relocating ~1200 staff) had worked, once we had settled in to the new building.  I had a small team of in-house psychologists devise ways of measuring the effectiveness of interdisciplinary interaction.  They took a baseline from a couple of years before everyone moved, then again at 6 monthly intervals through and after the move process.  Part of their findings were that the main building didn't work as designed.  People tended not to use fairly large areas of what had been designed as a space for interaction, so we arranged a meeting with the architects and invited them to review our findings.

 

The rather surprising thing was that the architects expressed amazement at being asked to review our research on how their building design was working in practice.  They commented that no client had ever come back to them, after completion, to give feedback on this aspect of a building's design.  To their credit they not only took the feedback on board, but asked us if we could provide them with more detail, so they could review how they looked at the social aspects of building design for future projects. 

 

 

[ProDave]

35 minutes ago, Sensus said:

Obviously, another problem is that whilst £250K may be an enormous sum of money to you, to an Architect (in terms of contract value), it's small beer, and if he's dealing exclusively with projects at that sort of scale, it's going to be maybe one of a couple of dozen that he's handling in any given year. To you, it's (usually) the biggest thing by far that's happening in your life, and you expect everyone else to share your level of engagement and commitment. To him, it's just another one of many jobs that he's got to plough through to get onto the next one, to keep a steady flow of income.

 

That touches on my pet topic, the level of architects fees.

 

Roughly what percentage do you charge?

 

In my brief encounter a few years ago, the architects I spoke to wanted to charge me in the order of 10%.  Now if your fees are anything like that, that's £25K per project (about what they wanted to charge me) and if you are doing "a couple of dozen" like that each year, then that is £600K per year.  Are you REALLY earning that much per year (less expenses of course)?

 

Or to put it another way, if you are doing 24 such projects in a year, then you are expecting to devote 2 man weeks to each project.  That does not sound like much time at all, and certainly not £25K worth of time.

 

You are doing nothing to dispel my impression of architects as vastly over paid.  I invite you to put your side to redress that feeling.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, Sensus said:

 

There is now (as of the 2013 update, so not that new) a specific work stage in the RIBA Plan of Work to deal with this.

 

To quote:

"Stage 7 - In Use : This is a new stage within the RIBA Plan of Work. It acknowledges the potential benefits of harnessing the project design information to assist with the successful operation and use of a building.... Stage 7 is a new stage which includes Post-occupancy Evaluation and review of Project Performance as well as new duties that can be undertaken during the In Use period of a building."

 

As with everything else though, we're not in this game for fun... we are a business. If you don't pay us, we don't do it. And the number of clients who are actually willing to pay for this work stage are few and far between. I would be similarly amazed if I ever had a self-build client who wanted to tick that particular box.

 

We do often get invited back for drinks or whatever, of course, to see the finished job, and that provides a limited and informal opportunity for feedback on initial satisfaction.

 

 

Interesting.  The project in question completed in late 2008, and I think we had this particular post-completion review with the architect in early 2010, so a few years before the change to the RIBA Plan of Work.

 

Initial satisfaction is something that we found challenging to be confident about.  There were the usual haul of post-completion snags, but 90% of these related to construction stuff (which, I have to say, SRM were pretty good at sorting out).  The BMS was also a bit of a disaster, and we spent a lot of time and money getting the heating, lighting and ventilation to work as designed, but that wasn't really the fault of the architect.  Trying to sift out building design and function concerns from building defects was pretty difficult, but overall most things worked OK, and once the snags were sorted the building pretty much worked as we wanted it to.

 

I'm sure self-builders wouldn't want to go this far.  We did it for our own reasons; we wanted to improve interdisciplinary working, and the building design was one element of that (along with a host of others).  Giving feedback to the architects was really just incidental to the work we were doing to improve the effectiveness of the service we deliver, and probably isn't something that many businesses would need to do.

[SteamyTea]

50 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The architects had included elements in the design that we wanted, areas where we hoped that people would be encouraged to meet and interact (a big problem with science is that people tend to work tightly within their own discipline).  The large central atrium that divided the lab part from the office part, and included things like a cafe and DIY refreshment areas, had small groups of comfortable seats, but was, in the main, a pretty open space.  It gave the building a nice light and airy feel.

This is an old problem. One of the colleges I was at narrowed the corridors. This forced people to interact more. That was in the 1970s.

Open plan, hot desk offices have been a disaster too.

People need control of their space and how it is shared with others.

The film Brasil springs to mind.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Sensus said:

but the hourly rate we use is markedly less than you'd pay for a semi-trained spanner-monkey to change the plugs, oil and filter on your car at a main dealer service

Slight difference as the vehicle technician, to use the correct term, is probably paid a fifth of what it charged.

Do you only get about a fifth of the practice fees?

Also, if a VT makes a mistake, the consequences can be serious. Thankfully this does not happen too much. 

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, Sensus said:

 

If you're asking me specifically, in relation to my practice, then we don't... we calculate our fees on the basis of an hourly rate, multiplied by the number of hours we think a particular task will take. I never much liked the 'percentage fee' method, as it obviously encourages the Architect to make the building as expensive as possible.

.....

 

But yes, those practices that work to a structure resembling the old RIBA fee scales would typically be charging about 10-12% for a full scope of service (but note that, as above, most self-build clients don't want the full scope of RIBA Plan of Work stages... or anything like).

 

Thank you.  All I can say is I wish I could have found an architect like that when I last looked because all wanted to charge the percentage fee, over estimated the build cost, and would not do just the work I wanted.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Ralph]

 

Just now, the_r_sole said:

We present service proposals as a shopping list for domestic clients, so they can get what they want out of the process and we can get paid for the actual output. Percentage fees are useful in some instances but not really with self builders, maybe you just didn't pick the right guys to work?

I have a full service contract based on the RIBA plan but on a fixed price. I would guess it would come in at about 7% of the build cost and they are considered an expensive but very good practice locally. No one there is getting rich, certainly not off me. 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[SteamyTea]

39 minutes ago, Sensus said:

So you think I should be paying my staff less, and keeping more for myself?

You said it.

But if a VT is earning around £12/hour, your staff will be earning less, say £10/hour.

Which is what I said a mystic at the seaside is worth.

 

Just for a laugh, cut one persons pay, and increase another, give it 6 months and see if the productivity has changed.

Productivity does not correlate with pay very well.

Edited September 11, 2019 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

We present service proposals as a shopping list for domestic clients, so they can get what they want out of the process and we can get paid for the actual output. Percentage fees are useful in some instances but not really with self builders, maybe you just didn't pick the right guys to work?

 

Thank you.

 

So it appears I was just unlucky (or the local market here is very different) in that I could not find anyone with such a sensible and flexible approach.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Sensus said:

[...]

This sort of delegation of responsibility for their poor judgement frustrates me, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately, and part of the game when you choose to work for self-builders.

[...]

 

So, how does your practice reduce the risks associated with that problem?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The sort of cars people drive can often be an indicator as to their income.  None of the architects that popped in to our build were driving new cars, or expensive ones.  From chatting to the couple of local ones I've got to know reasonably well now, I'd say they probably weren't earning anything near as much as some might think (don't know for sure, but that's the impression I've gained).

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

Do you actually intend to use them for a full service, and did they present it as a single service or is it staged where you can not engage them for later stages?

(I'll be honest and say that I don't really like the current riba plan  of work as it doesn't really work that well in Scotland on domestic jobs with traditional contracts)

It's staged so we have the option not to engage them for stages as we move through.. They have taken us through planning consent, building warrant and now tender administration. We will probably use them for contract administration then have discussions about surveys and inspections etc. 
 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Ralph

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Sensus said:

Can I ask what it is that you do for a living, and what the average salaries are for that?

You can. I am a special case though as I moved down here for other reasons and only play at working.  My background is very different from my current job.

I work in catering, because it is a reliable income (I live in a seasonal holiday part of the country).

The usual wage for a chef, down here, is around £18,000/year.  Half the year is compressed into 3 months though.

Other staff, are generally on minimum wage and zero hours contract.

State benefits often pay a lot better than working.  Why I have no problem with people on benefits.  And they get to go surfing.

To put things into perspective, a mate of mine works a an engineer in the renewable energy field (properly qualified and chartered) and earns less than me.  He is not unusual.

I don't work in the RE field any more, too many interns and 'professional' that know very little.

As for 'spending 7 years' training.  I spent that many too, not counting my apprenticeship in toolmaking.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

The salaries seem fairly similar to lawyers and accountants.  Do you base fees on roughly 1/3 each for fee earner, office admin and partner profit?

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Sensus said:

Then you have my sympathy, and I can understand your bitterness.

I said I am a special case. Am not bitter, other may be.

11 minutes ago, Sensus said:

making a bacon butty myself.

But are you capable of doing all the H&S, Food Standards and Employer paperwork on your own.

Do you get, by law, inspected every 2 years and have those results in the public domain.

And that is before TripAdvisor reviews.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I suspect there may also be a perception that hourly rates, if known, may seem high.  Years ago I used to do a bit of consultancy work (an accidental job on the side).  When first asked to do this, I had no idea how much to charge, so spoke to a friend that worked for the CAA.  They charge out their technical staff on an hourly rate.  He told me that they charged £140, plus VAT, per hour (this was around 15 years ago).  I decided to charge a little bit less, as that seemed a heck of a lot, and found myself deluged with work.  I learned two things, one that was I was charging far less than others offering similar services and that £140/hour is nothing like how much you actually earn per hour, as there is always lots of non-chargeable time in any job.

[Bitpipe]

I think the days of a car reflecting the wealth of an owner are long gone in these days of PCP where you can drive a new BMW for a couple hundred pounds a month with no intention to ever own it outright. I have friends who would not be seen dead in a less than two year old car but have no savings, life insurance etc.. life life day to day which is fair enough.

 

Back on topic, our architect had very sensible staged fees and when we felt that the next stage did not deliver the value (make your own bacon sandwich moment) then we amicably parted company.

 

That said, we made a few snafus that cost us money (i.e. not putting structural support in for wall mounted balcony glass, needed to use a cantilevered deck system over a GRP roof) and a few that just needed head scratching (poorly placed steels wrt duct runs) which may have been avoided if the architect had handled the detail design.

 

As regards architect fees - there's plenty of competition in the market and people don't need to pay them as evidenced by plenty of the self builders here.

[Bitpipe]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I suspect there may also be a perception that hourly rates, if known, may seem high.  Years ago I used to do a bit of consultancy work (an accidental job on the side).  When first asked to do this, I had no idea how much to charge, so spoke to a friend that worked for the CAA.  They charge out their technical staff on an hourly rate.  He told me that they charged £140, plus VAT, per hour (this was around 15 years ago).  I decided to charge a little bit less, as that seemed a heck of a lot, and found myself deluged with work.  I learned two things, one that was I was charging far less than others offering similar services and that £140/hour is nothing like how much you actually earn per hour, as there is always lots of non-chargeable time in any job.

 

The lad who did my landscaping had that issue - was cock a hoop at winning 10 out of 12 jobs he bid for but was stressing over fitting them all in, hiring extra labour etc.

 

I shared my opinion that he needed to put his prices up until the job win rate was manageable and he'd still make the same, if not more money.

 

Which he did... obv. not to me though

 

[Patrick]

Problem with wages/salaries are that in reality, it has nothing to do with what is "fair".

I personally would argue that a Nurse or a teacher has at least as much value to society than an Architect. And certanly much more value than anybody working in the financial sector.

Do they get paid accordingly? No.

This has to do with a lot of things, but partly with how we value ones work as a society.

When it come to the differences in earnings to fees. Like mentioned by @SteamyTea. most people I know don t work for a lot more than 18.000-24.000/year.

I have a few friends that are a lot more educated than I am , having spend a good couple of tens of thousands at Uni and came out with verious (good) degrees.

None of them making more than 35k/year.

One recently decided to dump his Teaching career in favour becoming an are Manager for the Nations favourite Food Discounter , in order to get a decent wage and a company car with it.

Not very challenging job, just high stress.

So it is understandable that a lot of people (including myself) are a but annoyed when hourly fees of 60,70,80 or more £ are chucked into a conversation as if it was nothing.

The dilemma is, that none of the professionals charging those amount are really getting anywhere near as much.

It is in NO relationship . Hardly anybody reaches a 50% cut out of the fees they charging, which means the side costs of running any (small) business are just too high in this country.

 

 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole