zoothorn Posted October 10, 2019 Author Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Declan52 said: The oval hole is just to give you a bit of movement in the fixing point. Just treat it as a normal hole and fix away. Post a link to the exact coach screws you bought. Ah ok.. just the oval design seems just -not- what I need, if I want to prevent any movement/ the very core purpose of the brackets. Coach screws https://www.screwfix.com/p/turbocoach-coach-screws-zinc-plated-8-x-120mm-50-pack/2394g?_requestid=465146 A whole morning of testing one screw into offcut.. & I got it down to a 7mm pilot hole (6mm is too tight, for me) driver it 2/3rds in, then socket ratchet whatnot the rest. So the bolts' shaft top area w'out thread, is 6mm. Is my 7mm pilot hole ok? Edited October 10, 2019 by zoothorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Declan52 said: The oval hole is just to give you a bit of movement in the fixing point. Just treat it as a normal hole and fix away. Post a link to the exact coach screws you bought. Quite sure you don't need special oval screws ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Bitpipe said: Quite sure you don't need special oval screws ? They are way to expensive and don't think they come in stainless steel so would rust and ruin the look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, zoothorn said: Ah ok.. just the oval design seems just -not- what I need, if I want to prevent any movement/ the very core purpose of the brackets. Coach screws https://www.screwfix.com/p/turbocoach-coach-screws-zinc-plated-8-x-120mm-50-pack/2394g?_requestid=465146 A whole morning of testing one screw into offcut.. & I got it down to a 7mm pilot hole (6mm is too tight, for me) driver it 2/3rds in, then socket ratchet whatnot the rest. So the bolts' shaft top area w'out thread, is 6mm. Is my 7mm pilot hole ok? They are an 8mm diameter screw so all you should pre drill your pilot is 4mm. Don't worry about the bracket moving. Once you have the screws in tight it won't go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 10, 2019 Author Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: Quite sure you don't need special oval screws ? 1 minute ago, Declan52 said: They are an 8mm diameter screw so all you should pre drill your pilot is 4mm. Don't worry about the bracket moving. Once you have the screws in tight it won't go anywhere. I simply can't do this tho. I spent whole morning testing a screw & how to use it: 4mm & my driver gets it in 1" & stops (I cant ratchet the remaining 4+" in by hand/ utterly nuts). 5mm hole = 2" in & stops. 6mm pilot = 2.5" in. 7mm pilot= 3" in.. & I can just about hand ratchet the remaining 2" in as I'm doing 12 & not 50. 8mm pilot is best, but the shaft's noticeably not flush in the hole/ gap. They're obviously meant to be used with a tool I dont have, power compact driver or whatever it is/ I dont know what.. but info doesn't mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyscotland Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Sounds like you just need a bigger ratchet (as the cheapest solution). If you over drill the pilot holes then there will not be enough thread gripping the timber. Buy a long wheel-nut bar for your socket set. Or slide your existing ratchet up a rigid pipe/box section/whatever to extend the lever arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) Have you got a 230V mains pistol drill? That'd drive them in. What have you got in the way of drills? Edited October 10, 2019 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Good way to burn out a mains drill that, Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, dpmiller said: Good way to burn out a mains drill that, Clive. I whacked in loads of concrete screws with my 110V Makita SDS with a chuck adapter in and a Torx bit in it. Seemed to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/10/2019 at 20:31, Onoff said: I whacked in loads of concrete screws with my 110V Makita SDS with a chuck adapter in and a Torx bit in it. Seemed to work. I'm really struggling & I'm finding this project extremely difficult. Ive got my L two beams, pillars cut/ notched in shoes, & the 2nd long beam on the pillars. All dry run. Its taken 2 full days to do just this, (4th front beam just cut & end cuprinol'd so another day to dry) & I just cannot get the pillars plumb. I can get diagonal lengths equal, but not the distance between the long beams by 1/2": why this is so is a mystery. The main problem is the pillar shoes on the pads. They're not stable & rock on one corner. So the only way of getting them to sit more or less solidly (IE with the shoes flat enough on pads) is slightly tilted. Its not noticeably so, but the level-bubble is end of its liquid on both sides. As to the resin thing- which I'm considering trying at least a few brackets into concrete by end of week, on the top pads: I have a total of 16 fix points with 12mm holes @ depth of 100mm (for my 10mm dia bars) 8x for 'L' shape brackets (top pads), 8x for the pillar shoes (btm pads). How do I progress using the tube of fisher? I mean I have no idea how much of the stuff I'll use for 4 holes, let alone 16. Are 16 too many? how long to set/ continue with job & fix the bracket on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 17/09/2019 at 11:56, Declan52 said: Do it like this, nice and simple. This is the post/ info on the fischer stuff. Looking at tube info its small I cannot see info properly or understand it: Ive no idea how much to put in the hole, what "workingtime" means relative to "curing time". Can the tube be used again or is it spent after a few holes? what's the best methid to use it for my 16 holes (is it conceivable I can use for all of them?). Can anyone help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Is the shoe not sitting level on the concrete because the concrete isn't level or the shoe isn't level?? Could you use some washers under the relevant side to get it level ?? Working time is how long you have to squirt it in and get the bolt set where it needs to be. Curing time is how long it will take to fully cure. As for the resin what does it say on the tube in terms of curing time. Can you search online for this make for further information. It would be best to have all drilled and dry and ready to fix them take a go at doing them all in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 17/09/2019 at 19:37, Onoff said: HANG ON! Until you get the Taurus shoe you don't know the hole size for sure i.e whether it will take an M10 fixing stud! You might have to stick with an M8 resin stud. Depending on which resin you get e.g Rawlplug, Fischer, DeWalt, No Nonsense etc then hole depth might vary a bit. For example: Ok here is post with info on re. depth to drill.. but its rawlplug. Onoff you mention it might vary dependent on mfr of the stuff. Have you any idea on the fischer stuff ideal depth?? or do I (do you) just go with this info? I have two nozzles. Why two suggests I might be able to use/ remove nozzle & dispose.. & I use the main tube of stuff another day then with the extra nozzle. Is this true? I understand to fill half way/ found this info deep in the thread s'where. Thanks, zoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 19 hours ago, Declan52 said: Is the shoe not sitting level on the concrete because the concrete isn't level or the shoe isn't level?? Could you use some washers under the relevant side to get it level ?? Working time is how long you have to squirt it in and get the bolt set where it needs to be. Curing time is how long it will take to fully cure. As for the resin what does it say on the tube in terms of curing time. Can you search online for this make for further information. It would be best to have all drilled and dry and ready to fix them take a go at doing them all in a row. Hi Declan- probably concrete's not dead level, &/or a bit in-out on shoe 'square' area.. If I put washers under shoe corners, the weight of the lot on it will just bend it down tho? I thought of shims like this, but the bendy steel prevents anything bar an 8" sliver of something perfect fitted: its a pig. I'm just gonna have to go as is. I got all 16x holes drilled.. now my tape mark on 12mm drill bit got pushed up, so Ive gone too deep by 2cm on some: so the 10mm bar will need to sit 1-2cm off the btm of hole.. is this extra resin below ok? & to set the damn thing in w'out it dissapearring.. put a nut on/ masking tape around btm of nut to prevent resin setting on thread & hang it from the top of hole: is anything wrong with this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 You can't try to put the rest of the frame up unless you get the uprights plumb. Further down the line this will cause more and more issues so fix it first. What are we talking, a 2 mm gap or a 20mm gap to make the shoe sit level and plumb?? Your idea about lifting the bolt up should work but the threads have to be clean or you won't get the nut of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Declan52 said: You can't try to put the rest of the frame up unless you get the uprights plumb. Further down the line this will cause more and more issues so fix it first. What are we talking, a 2 mm gap or a 20mm gap to make the shoe sit level and plumb?? Your idea about lifting the bolt up should work but the threads have to be clean or you won't get the nut of. Actually the back post is happy slightly non-plumb & back beam 1 & the long side beam sitting on its notch are solid: I mean yes prob talking 5 mm's not 20mm/ IE.. it looks ok. Other beam rocks a bit even so (uneven underneath) but I hope once shoe base forced to pad with nut pressure, bending it a mite on cnrs.. it might get solid. Its a damn tricky proposition for me, to get all the pillars & beams plumb & spot-on level doing this 1st time.. I'm gonna have to compromise a bit or I'll just never get the damn thing up. I was thinking of wrapping masking tape round nut underside to protect it & thread top bit from the resin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 @Declan52 can you cut off excess resin @ the top, once its set? is this the idea.. or to wipe off after inserting the rod? And the tube of fisher resin: I have 2 nozzles, but no info as to why/ how to use. Can you remind me how, if I can, make best use of the 2? without knowing how this stuff behaves & "sets in nozzle".. Im going at this in a bit of a panic, blind as it were. I have only 1 shot at this so must prep best I can.. holes 1-2cm too deep isn't ideal but can't rectify. Tbh thunderbolts were the route I should've gone I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Cut a small bit of the tip of the nozzle so you have more control over the amount that comes out. As it expands you can either wipe it off or let it expand fully before you clean it. I would do it a pad at a time. Squirt into the hole and drop the bolt then watch it expand and once it's stopped a quick wipe then onto the next one and just repeat. Your having major issues putting bolts into soft timber so concrete wouldn't have been any easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 @Onoff can you remind me with this fisher stuff: I have 2 nozzle things. This seems to imply I can use one/ it sets inside it > I bin it.. & I can then use the other. But I don't know- is this correct? if so, could I do half my holes (all 16x drilled ready) > remove nozzle & put back the tube's cap? > set my bolts in > take cap off & fix 2nd nozzle > do other 8x holes. I'm trying to get a clear plan prior to using this stuff, or I risk it either setting in the holes, or setting in the tube whilst using it.. which would ruin the whole project. I know its been touched on before, but again its looking for a needle in a haystack without #numbered posts. I have trawled thru the thread to find the posts but can't find the info I need.. its exhausting. I'd appreciate any reminders on how to use this stuff. Thanks, zoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, Declan52 said: Cut a small bit of the tip of the nozzle so you have more control over the amount that comes out. As it expands you can either wipe it off or let it expand fully before you clean it. I would do it a pad at a time. Squirt into the hole and drop the bolt then watch it expand and once it's stopped a quick wipe then onto the next one and just repeat. Your having major issues putting bolts into soft timber so concrete wouldn't have been any easier. Ok understood. I had no idea it expanded.. so this helps. Right: but its the cap & the nozzles.. I need to know how to use: IE can I put cap back on after using say 1/2 the tube, or not? why have I got 2 nozzles/ what's the design thinking? does it set within the nozzle very quickly, or in 30mins, or after a few hours? Yes getting thunderbolts in would have been too difficult for me. Ok I've set today to do this resin job but I'm not yet prepped with the tube (total convoluted info mess full of too many tiny ambiguous diagrams/ awful) & I'm panicking tbh.. I must do this before rain hits again tonight/ tmrw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 Somewhat of a disaster- resin went in ok but cleaning the holes before was almost impossible I found.. tho did my best (5 hours cleaning them ny'day & today) so my hole depth decreaced from 9.5cm to ~ 6cm & so bar protruding/ needed cutting off (as impossible to drill a perfectly vertical hole) > deburring with angle grinder > one nut stuck solid > bar shifted in resin trying to undo it, or force it down. A mare of a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 @Declan52 or @PeterW or @Onoff Done my outer frame at last.. & I'm onto my joists. What distance between joists across would you suggest? if I have the hanger brackets, & I need to add a centre noggin, I need to get a hammer in between joists to fix the brackets. Or is the idea fix the centre noggin brackets (I assume noggins don't need to be staggered) onto the joists, one each side of the middle, before joists are lowered into place-? Thanks. Pics of it when time.. rush on b4 the rain hits t'nite for 2 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 I have a distance of 217cm to span both ways. Is it 400mm centre marks or something, or is that figure for pB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 @Onoff @Declan52 @PeterW .. I need to do my 6x2 joists asap, so if you could help on what figure to space them at (I have 2170mm to span).. thanks alot chaps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, zoothorn said: @Onoff @Declan52 @PeterW .. I need to do my 6x2 joists asap, so if you could help on what figure to space them at (I have 2170mm to span).. thanks alot chaps. If i were doing it I would do 400mm centres and 22mm decking, but then I tend to over engineer. Looks a lovely spot by the way. Edited October 24, 2019 by PeterStarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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