Just before and just after the meter box : quick check please

[ToughButterCup]

I think I have followed both the manufacturer's guidelines (Atlantic Plastics, Talis Intex 2) and those issued by United Utilities. In the same vein as this post, could you please have a look - thanks. I'm a bit jumpy about getting this right because UU are coming to inspect my work soon.

I'm not that confident about it either......

 

This is the layout of the; stop tap, non return valve , and the drain off tap.

Bottom 'row' is incoming, top 'row' outgoing

 

Thanks @Conor and @epsilonGreedy.

 

I'll be sure to

• Moisten everything before tightening.  (why?)
• Not use PTFE tape.
• Tighten just beyond hand tight. (instructions say the thread should not be visible)
• Use a Sharpie to mark a depth guide to help me check the 'fit'

By accident, it seems the incoming pipe may well come out of the ground at the correct angle to match up with the meter box. I'll have more on that adventure later today.

 

Is the sequence of piping and valves correct above, please? Thanks

Ian

[MikeSharp01]

Are you being allowed to run from the local main into the water meter yourself, this is usually a utility type job?

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

• Tighten just beyond hand tight. (instructions say the thread should not be visible)

 

This is true for a superbly engineered product like a Plasson water connector but the examples in your photo look like PhilMacs. If so you will need some mechanical leverage to clamp the joints together to a longterm leak free status. Philmacs are also only compatible with plumbers with 4 arms because they flop together and can flop apart before you can wind on any clamping force.

[Construction Channel]

Will you be putting inserts/stiffeners into the blue bits of pipe? 

 

Are all the fittings wras approved? 

[soapstar]

stiffeners are a must or you will crush the pipe 

[Carrerahill]

30 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is true for a superbly engineered product like a Plasson water connector but the examples in your photo look like PhilMacs. If so you will need some mechanical leverage to clamp the joints together to a longterm leak free status. Philmacs are also only compatible with plumbers with 4 arms because they flop together and can flop apart before you can wind on any clamping force.

You seem to know a bit about this stuff - I have an incoming MDPE pipe under my current kitchen -  I recall from the last time I was under the floor that it changes to a 22mm copper to go up through the floor, then stop cock.

 

My kitchen is moving to the extension so my plan is to connect a new piece of MDPE to to the original MDPE and run it under the floor to the new kitchen and then redo the stop cock and reconnect the rest of the house which will make for a neat install and no stop cock in a soon to be office/den.

 

So does that sound reasonable?

 

Also - I need to run a pipe out to the garage, should I come up on main stop-cock, then Tee back out of that, another stop cock and then MDPE back out and under the floor to the duct over to garage. Or could I Tee off from the original MDPE - 1 to kitchen for house supply and 1 to garage. I could always run that pipe along under the floor and have a stop cock to garage under the floor in the hall cupboard, so if I wanted to isolate garage I could lift a hinged trap and turn it off, or do I just run a supply to the garage and have a stopcock where it enters. The only downside to this is the only way to isolate the supply from house to garage would be from pavement - however, that is the case with the house pre-stop-cock anyway so does it matter...

 

 

 

 

[Construction Channel]

Hang on. I think you might have the non return and the drain the wrong way round. At the moment you will only be able to drain the section of pipe between the other two bits if I'm looking at this right. 

[Construction Channel]

This is my incoming which I think is right. (ignore the mess) 

[ToughButterCup]

7 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Are you being allowed to run from the local main into the water meter yourself, this is usually a utility type job?

 

Yes. United Utilities require me to:  from a meter or so short of the main to the meter itself.

[ToughButterCup]

7 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is true for a superbly engineered product like a Plasson water connector but the examples in your photo look like PhilMacs. If so you will need some mechanical leverage to clamp the joints together to a longterm leak free status. Philmacs are also only compatible with plumbers with 4 arms because they flop together and can flop apart before you can wind on any clamping force.

 

Right. I'm ditching Philmac.

Did you get your Plasson stuff online? What's the point of poorly designed and built infrastructure.?

It's only the metal non return valves that were expensive.

 

Why is Plasson stuff better?

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Right. I'm ditching Philmac.

Did you get your Plasson stuff online? What's the point of poorly designed and built infrastructure.?

It's only the metal non return valves that were expensive.

 

Why is Plasson stuff better?

 

 

Nothing at all wrong with Philmac fittings.  I've used 3 or 4 different makes of MDPE fitting (bear in mind that we have loads of MDPE pipework, courtesy of having a borehole plumbed with the stuff) and my favourite is Plasson, but Philmac comes a close second.  TBH, all MDPE fittings are much of a muchness, with the sole exception of the tat that Screwfix sell (easy to tell these from others, they use a lip seal rather than an O ring).

 

The best online supplier I've found is Pipestock, but they are just down the road from me (well, a half hour drive away): https://www.pipestock.com/

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Construction Channel said:

This is my incoming which I think is right. 

 

Ermmmmm Ed, you were in a rush to post , I can tell

 

Have I got this right on your photo above:

• In through the big red valve
• Past the pressure gauge
• Through the non return valve
• To the drain point

And what you suggest I should do is - on the incoming bottom row of mine 

• In through the blue valve (bottom right)
• Then the non-return valve
• Then the drain point.

On the outgoing top row

• Put the drain valve downstream (to the right of) the blue stop valve

Should I - like you - put a pressure gauge in ?

I have a pressure tester (4 bar at the furthest end of our system in our current house - next door)

 

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, Construction Channel said:

Will you be putting inserts/stiffeners into the blue bits of pipe? 

Are all the fittings wras approved? 

 

Yes, yes.

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Should I - like you - put a pressure gauge in ?

 

Thats not a pressure gauge - it’s a PRV (Pressure Reducing Valve) and is probably preset at 3 bar. Useful as a failsafe if you don’t have an invented cylinder, but not a replacement for the control group that comes with the UVC. 

 

That sort of PRV reduces the flow too, so I tend to set at 4.5 bar and let the control group drop it to 3 bar before the cylinder. 

[epsilonGreedy]

On 06/08/2019 at 19:50, JSHarris said:

The best online supplier I've found is Pipestock, but they are just down the road from me (well, a half hour drive away): https://www.pipestock.com/

 

 

Except they do hold not stock Plasson parts and so any order with Plasson parts immediately goes onto back order with a delayed delivery.

 

On 06/08/2019 at 19:50, JSHarris said:

Nothing at all wrong with Philmac fittings.

 

 

Very odd that as a complete beginner the Plasson fittings jointed together with low stress and required just two arms. My fist encounter with PhilMac was aborted after 20 minutes when I concluded I was doing something wrong. When my pro developer/builder neighbour returned from work I trotted over for help. He immediately recoiled in horror at the sight of PhilMac and said "I don't touch those", he then spent 20 minutes wrestling with the PhilMac coupling to achieve some sort of dependable joint.

 

Further research of the PhilMac saga led to the conclusion their loose wobbly joints (at the push together stage, pre torquing) are due to their history and their sole USP, they arrived on the market in ancient plumbing times when it was often necessary to join 25mm pipe with an older standard size. I guess a snug initial push together fit like Plasson is not possible when trying to accommodate different pipe sizes.

Edited August 8, 2019 by epsilonGreedy

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Except they do not stock Plasson parts and so any order with Plasson parts immediately goes onto back order with a delayed delivery.

[...]

 

Hmmm. I'll give them a ring in 't morning. It took 40 minutes at my local  BM to source those few bits and bobs in the photo at the top of the post.

God it was a faff.

[Construction Channel]

10 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Ermmmmm Ed, you were in a rush to post , I can tell

 

Have I got this right on your photo above:

• In through the big red valve
• Past the pressure gauge
• Through the non return valve
• To the drain point

And what you suggest I should do is - on the incoming bottom row of mine 

• In through the blue valve (bottom right)
• Then the non-return valve
• Then the drain point.

On the outgoing top row

• Put the drain valve downstream (to the right of) the blue stop valve

Should I - like you - put a pressure gauge in ?

I have a pressure tester (4 bar at the furthest end of our system in our current house - next door)

 

Probably yes to all

but I don't fully under stand the prv part yet. I have been told and why it is where it is but that's still a grey area for me atm. 

As for the position of the drain and the non check valve. The check stops any water from going backwards. The drain is to empty your house system if you really needed to go that far. In your picture the check valve would stop your house from emptying. 

 

I also don't fully understand where your outgoing one is going? 

[ToughButterCup]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Thats not a pressure gauge - [...]

 

Ta!

Is there any point in putting a pressure gauge in ? 

[ToughButterCup]

Just now, Construction Channel said:

[...]

I also don't fully understand where your outgoing one is going? 

 

Remember the Piggery? Where you parked that one time?

The water comes into the piggery first , gets metered and only then goes to the house and the Wintergarden and pond.

[ProDave]

I fitted that type of PRV on the feed to the static caravan (because I did not trust the lousy push fit caravan plumbing to withstand >6 bar)

 

On initial connection, it would not regulate.  on strip down I found a bit of grit, cleaned it out and it worked.

 

This summer, after having the water to the 'van off all winter, it won't regulate pressure again. I have yet to strip it down to find out what has upset it this time.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Hmmm. I'll give them a ring in 't morning. It took 40 minutes at my local  BM to source those few bits and bobs in the photo at the top of the post.

God it was a faff.

 

 

Their web site is a pleasure to use, just a shame their much trumpeted fast dispatch times are void as soon as a Plasson component is added to the basket. I only ended with PhilMac parts as a substitude suggested by Pipestock due to back order delays on Plasson, it was in this telephone conversation I was told they do not hold stock for Plasson.

[Construction Channel]

59 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Remember the Piggery? Where you parked that one time?

The water comes into the piggery first , gets metered and only then goes to the house and the Wintergarden and pond.

I do remember. And hopefully I am having my meter fitted in the next "21 days" 

Do they install the meter? 

Are you sure they want fittings on their side of it? 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Except they do hold not stock Plasson parts and so any order with Plasson parts immediately goes onto back order with a delayed delivery.

 

 

Very odd that as a complete beginner the Plasson fittings jointed together with low stress and required just two arms. My fist encounter with PhilMac was aborted after 20 minutes when I concluded I was doing something wrong. When my pro developer/builder neighbour returned from work I trotted over for help. He immediately recoiled in horror at the sight of PhilMac and said "I don't touch those", he then spent 20 minutes wrestling with the PhilMac coupling to achieve some sort of dependable joint.

 

Further research of the PhilMac saga led to the conclusion their loose wobbly joints (at the pus together stage, pre torquing) are due to their history and their sol USP, they arrived on the market in ancient plumbing times when it was often necessary to join 25mm pipe with an older standard size. I guess a snug initial push together fit like Plasson is not possible when trying to accommodate different pipe sizes.

 

 

Joining metric to imperial always needs an adapter designed for the job.  There's no way an old BSP imperial pipe will fit into a metric fitting.  Even Philmac sell separate imperial alkathene to metric MDPE fittings, as a specific part.  Their standard MDPE range are metric only.  The fact that 3/4" alkathene (the nearest size to 25mm MDPE) has an OD of 26.6mm minimum, 26.9mm maximum, is enough to show that there is no way that an O ring sized for 25mm OD has a hope in hell of even being stretched over the pipe, let alone forming a reliable seal.

 

I frankly wonder where you get your supposedly "expert" advice from.  If I had to guess I'd say it was from people who don't know their arse from their elbow.  FWIW, I've laid 100's of metres of 3/4" black alkathene over the years; it was the standard water pipe run around the farm for water troughs in the fields.  The stuff is noticeably larger in diameter (and was more robust to handle, due to the thicker wall thickness) than the lighter weight metric MDPE we have have now. 

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, Construction Channel said:

I do remember. And hopefully I am having my meter fitted in the next "21 days" 

Do they install the meter? 

Are you sure they want fittings on their side of it? 

Yes, and

erm, I'm off to double check Ed Thanks.??

 

[ToughButterCup]

Edward ( @Construction Channel ) you are a star, my son.

I had another look at the instructions:

 

 

The image as presented confused me because of the way the inlet and outlet pipes are portrayed : inlet on the right (in the call-out circle) and outlet on the left.

In the  meter box I have,  the pipes are reversed. What matters is the arrows (indicating flow), not the position of the pipe (inlet left or right hand side).

Your post , made me look at the situation again. Thanks.

 

Now I am not going to bother with the NRVs (non return valve)  in the Piggery. I am going to fit them in the house instead. That'll reduce the likelihood of error  (in the meter fitting process) on my part greatly.

 

Just for completeness, I add a screenshot of UU's general instructions in the hope it might help people planning their water supply strategy.

 

and finally here's the manufacturer's cross-section drawing for the meter box : note the  fixing straps (securing straps) for the 'inner' box - they look pretty flimsy to me.

 

 

I'll post pictures of the final installation later today.

 

Thanks everyone for the posts - for me it's especially valuable to see a range of opinion.

Carefully argued, politely expressed and closely evidenced  opinion, dissenting or not,  is healthy.