Conor Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 We've a lot of fixed pane windows in our design, and in a lot of cases the frames will be barely visible as they are high level with deep reveals. Can I use glazing units fitted directly to the ICF reveals? Thinking of fitting against exernal side of the concrete core and securing with strips of EPS300. Are there regs/standard details for this kind of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 First of all I thought that’s a good idea, then I thought a bit more. What happens if you break one, how you getting it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1c Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I considered doing this for our house with some pretty large panes. IIRC when I spoke to Gaulhofer about it they said that it was no problem technically, but there was a much increased possibility of damaging the glass as the edges/ corners would not be protected by the frame. We are using a TF, with concrete in the mix I imagine the risk would go up. If there are no problems I am sure it would look amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 My recollection is that Tony (of GBF and Tony Tray fame) did this for some of his windows but I can't immediately see any reference to it on his web site: http://tonyshouse.readinguk.org/air-sealing-windows-and-doors/ Perhaps a search of GBF would turn up something. (GBF = Green Building Forum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 Thanks guys. I'll look in to it in more detail. In regards to removal of units in future, I could fit the external EPS slips first, install glazing units from the inside, and fix in position using internal timber slips (+ air tight tape) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Conor said: We've a lot of fixed pane windows in our design, and in a lot of cases the frames will be barely visible as they are high level with deep reveals. Can I use glazing units fitted directly to the ICF reveals? Thinking of fitting against exernal side of the concrete core and securing with strips of EPS300. Are there regs/standard details for this kind of thing? I wanted this sort of install too - but every time I spoke to glaziers and window manufacturers they seemed a bit disinterested. I have a window "splashback" to one elevation of my kitchen - basically from just above counter to just below cabinets there is a 300mm x 2800mm window. I wanted it to just disappear into the reveal with no real frame as such. The closest I got to this was a glazing channel set into the timber frame that the double glazed unit could be fixed into. I could then simply render/plaster up to it but this created issues such as drainage, I would need to have drainage outlets on the outside, I would need the frame watertight at the bottom corners so seep-past could not run out the end of the channel, then I would have a frozen piece of aluminium channel in the winter which would condensate. I then decided to buy a double glazed unit and make a timber frame myself but for time I decided not to. In the end we just bought normal windows and will take the finishes up to as close to the bead as possible so you just have a little piece of frame, then the bead then the glass. If someone had been a bit more interested in what I had to say I think they could have done something for me but I was losing momentum and the window order helped me regain momentum so it was a time/speed thing in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) Where do you stand regarding the building regs, escape from fire part B? Thought you needed windows that open. I mean getting fixed and opening windows to match up might be tricky? Edited July 25, 2019 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Temp said: Where do you stand regarding the building regs, escape from fire part B? Thought you needed windows that open. Two of the windows are high level letter box windows in open plan areas, other ones are in 1st floor bedrooms that have either Juliet balconies or skylights. I hadn't fully considered the water drainage and plastering upto the window... Sounds like more problem than it's worth. Might just go back to the idea of standard pvc frames with reveals packed out to his most of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_L Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Not sure if this is what @Ed Davies was referring to from http://tonyshouse.readinguk.org/category/the-build/page/2/ about 25% down page 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I suspect that one reason that window suppliers may not be interested is that most of the profit in windows is in the frame, rather than the glazing. I can't see why there needs to be a frame with a modern glazing unit, if anything not having one halves the water ingress risk, I'd have thought. Back when we were thinking of building with an oak frame (long time ago now, and not for this plot) one place we looked at had 3G units that were fitted directly to openings, with no frames. Oak moves a lot more than masonry, so I can't see fitting glazing directly to the structure shouldn't work OK. It'd certainly give a nice clean look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I have been thinking about this a lot more @Conor, with a opening window you get a window frame and then an inner frame (sash) that holds the glass, would it be possible to buy the inner sash with glass installed but not buy the outer frame, this could be fitted to the house and plasterboarded up to giving a thin frame look, it would allow the glass to be removed if needed and drainage channels to work. Just a thought anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: I have been thinking about this a lot more @Conor, with a opening window you get a window frame and then an inner frame (sash) that holds the glass, would it be possible to buy the inner sash with glass installed but not buy the outer frame, this could be fitted to the house and plasterboarded up to giving a thin frame look, it would allow the glass to be removed if needed and drainage channels to work. Just a thought anybody. Just use a fixed window, saves a lot of hassle and allow space for glass to be replaced should it need to be. If just using glass, which you can do. You need to factor in glass replacement should it need to be. It’s not that we don’t want to just supply glass and prefer the whole unit, it’s more practical and responsibility falls with the manufacturer/supplier. When it’s just glass, whose responsible when the proverbial hits the fan? Edited July 27, 2019 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 On 27/07/2019 at 10:50, craig said: When it’s just glass, whose responsible when the proverbial hits the fan? I am going to turn that question around. Could you (well the industry) make a double, or triple glazed window that was guaranteed not to mist up within say 5 or 10 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, SteamyTea said: I am going to turn that question around. Could you (well the industry) make a double, or triple glazed window that was guaranteed not to mist up within say 5 or 10 years? It would say at this stage, no. Glass suppliers will not give warranties outwith the standard 5 to 10 years - too many variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, craig said: too many variables. I understand that, so let us work on it. The way I see it is that you have to allow for expansion, but reduce bending, twisting and shearing. Are there different types of sealant (think they call them mastic) that perform better than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) It's not my area of expertise but the issue is the spacers need to be inserted between the glass units, they then need to be sealed with what is known as hotmelt (a buytl sealant) and industry standard. You have movement of the building, you have movement of the window frame and over time that hotmelt seal/bond can fail slightly and cause the misting issue. In addition, things such as cleaning products can lead to the hotmelt failing. Many other things can cause it, but I hope it helps a little. Edited January 21, 2020 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, craig said: Many other things can cause it, but I hope it helps a little. I just see it as an engineering challenge. And probably a pretty easy one. Boats have large double glazed windows, any of them survive for years. It may need a new technique, or standard, maybe a compression seal, rather than a permanent one. I remember reading a few years ago in my favourite comic that some silicone sealants were tested out in space. The best performing one as an off the shelf product from a DIY store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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