Garage founds that can be bolstered later

[davidc]

I am having to move a simple lightweight detached timber garage from its current location to a few meters distant in order to make way for new house build. A simple shuttered slab will suffice (that is what it now rests on).

 

In the future i would like to have the option of replacing the current garage with a taller one with the same or very similar footprint that accommodates an attic workshop above. 

 

I don't want the expense of providing more substantial garage founds at the same time as the house build than the very simple one i have in mind. Neither do i want to include it on the building warrant either as the zero VAT eligibility rests on no outbuilding being involved - something that, even if i pay for the garage foundation work entirely separately with VAT paid in full, could mire the main house VAT status in complications.

 

I wondered, if to accommodate any future taller (and ever so slightly larger footprint) garage, i could go ahead with simple slab to get the garage out the way and (at a later time) a deeper built-up perimeter around the simple slab to support the new taller garage that will satisfy building control in a way where the proposed new simple slab doesn't have to be ripped up again ? And if so does anything need to be done differently when planning the initial slab that in the future can accommodate something around it that will support the taller garage structure ? 

 

I'm in Scotland i should add.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by davidc

[Ferdinand]

First explore the difference between the two different sets of founds. I would think the extra to do it now may be negligible.

 

A deeper slab or perimeter need not look much different to the simple one, surely?

[ProDave]

What is this rule that stops you claiming the VAT of a garage built at the same time as the house?

[Jeremy Harris]

Our detached garage was built as a part of the house and zero rated for VAT.  As I understand it that rule is the same everywhere in the UK.

[jamiehamy]

We claimed and had accepted Vat back for our detached garage. Was in plans. 

[joe90]

And me, claiming VAT on detached garage.

[Oz07]

What about if not shown on plans but built at same time? @Temp

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Oz07 said:

What about if not shown on plans but built at same time? @Temp

Ah, plans must be included with Vat return application so I would guess if not on plans them not claimable.

[Oz07]

Yeh but how do they know you've built one? Materials could feasibly pass as wastage on house. 

 

Any way I do actually want the official answer

[davidc]

Thanks. History is that i phoned HM Revenue and Customs last year and was left with the impression that a newly built garage (built at the same same time as zero rated new main dwelling) also attracts the exemption bestowing it with zero VAT rating. But where the detached garage has an ancillary amenity, as in my case insulated workshop above, then it probably looses the exemption. Quickly (?) reading through Notice 708 i'm struggling to find where this is spelt out and it is possible i may have been misinformed.

 

Even my plan of retaining garage during build process in any form may be problematic as 708 also states that, for a new main dwelling to qualify for zero rating, "before construction starts, any pre-existing building is demolished completely to ground level".

 

I may be digressing into VAT perhaps too far for a foundation post and perhaps should pose the VAT quandary to the VAT section. Either way i should stress i'm not at this stage definitely going to proceed with a taller garage replacement but what i didn't want to do is have a slab put down in one particular way if a small change/consideration will save time or costs if replacing with a taller garage with room above at a later date.

[Jeremy Harris]

FWIW my garage will never house a car.  It's an insulated workshop, that happens to have a garage door and is called a garage on the plans...

[scottishjohn]

don,t make sense not to put correct founds in now for later work -they cannot argue --you are just being super sure your wooden garage won,t sink

[davidc]

Ah, maybe i never saw it in 708 anyway as the caveat i was eluding to is in the notes of VAT431NB and makes it plain:  "you cannot claim VAT back on any materials used on the construction of rooms above or attached to a detached garage". Guess a taller garage and founds could be reclaimed but sans off all of the materials and labour needed for the upper floor. I could say the high garage roof space is required for parking camper van with roof rack for cycles (Penny-farthing) if questioned ?

 

I could do that @scottishjohn but as i'm not certain yet for sure that the garage will be replaced with a taller one then i'd be beefing up the founds for no tangible reason if it didn't go ahead i guess. But if @Ferdinand is right on the modest difference in cost then it becomes much less of an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

I was advised to call my workshop a garage as a workshop is not VAT claimable but a garage is. Just call it a garage, Any materials obviously not for a garage don’t include In the claim. I am sure they will not work out how much timber etc it takes to build a large garage.

[Ferdinand]

You could try building a tall garage now, and inserting the middle floor later.

 

Not sure what the height would need to be.

 

I have always thought that should I ever do any self-build plots, I would have an item in the Masterplan that each house must have a tall garage - so that the van issue will not arise in St Ferdinandberg.

 

You need a tall garage because Winnebagos and other RVs can be up to 12 feet tall.

 

F

Edited July 9, 2019 by Ferdinand

[joe90]

Or you want to install a two/four post lift to service your classic car. Like I wish I had done but I was building mine under permitted development due to someone trying to sabotage our planning application!!! So was limited on height.?

Edited July 9, 2019 by joe90

[scottishjohn]

33 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Or you want to install a two/four post lift to service your classic car. Like I wish I had done but I was building mine under permitted development due to someone trying to sabotage our planning application!!! So was limited on height.?

you don,t have send lift right to the top -

you wanna buy a good 2 poster --? a hoffman --none of this italian crap --a good german one 

screw type so no extra height needed on post height which will be about 7ft 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Temp]

Vat 708 paragraph 3.2.1 in the table it says a garage qualifies if built at same time as new house.

 

I can't see a reference to rooms above a garage in vat 708. Anyone got s paragraph number?

[Temp]

If the garage isn't on PP drawings it must be being built under PDR which dont exist until after the house is constructed (I believe). So the vat man could say it wasn't lawful to build it at same time as the house and deny the reclaim on the garage. Why not get it added to the PP?

Edited July 10, 2019 by Temp

[Carrerahill]

On 09/07/2019 at 10:13, davidc said:

I am having to move a simple lightweight detached timber garage from its current location to a few meters distant in order to make way for new house build. A simple shuttered slab will suffice (that is what it now rests on).

 

In the future i would like to have the option of replacing the current garage with a taller one with the same or very similar footprint that accommodates an attic workshop above. 

 

I don't want the expense of providing more substantial garage founds at the same time as the house build than the very simple one i have in mind. Neither do i want to include it on the building warrant either as the zero VAT eligibility rests on no outbuilding being involved - something that, even if i pay for the garage foundation work entirely separately with VAT paid in full, could mire the main house VAT status in complications.

 

I wondered, if to accommodate any future taller (and ever so slightly larger footprint) garage, i could go ahead with simple slab to get the garage out the way and (at a later time) a deeper built-up perimeter around the simple slab to support the new taller garage that will satisfy building control in a way where the proposed new simple slab doesn't have to be ripped up again ? And if so does anything need to be done differently when planning the initial slab that in the future can accommodate something around it that will support the taller garage structure ? 

 

I'm in Scotland i should add.

 

 

I would just prepare and pour a good slab. My garage is 100mm block, 2.4 high with a tiled pitch roof. Slab was 10" thick with 10mm rebar sitting on some 40 odd tons of type 1 compacted in 75mm layers. I allowed 50mm scarcement around the whole slab - edges are possibly a little thicker as I let the type 1 run down a little at the edge.

 

 

[davidc]

10 hours ago, Temp said:

Vat 708 paragraph 3.2.1 in the table it says a garage qualifies if built at same time as new house.

 

I can't see a reference to rooms above a garage in vat 708. Anyone got s paragraph number?

 

I added the following after the initial post....

 

On 09/07/2019 at 14:52, davidc said:

Ah, maybe i never saw it in 708 anyway as the caveat i was eluding to is in the notes of VAT431NB

 

There is a garage marked on the PP just not one with the workshop above for reasons stated. PP amendment to garage height but without workshop floor possible perhaps.

Edited July 10, 2019 by davidc

[davidc]

Thanks @Carrerahill . Garage with workshop i guess would be about 5m high at ridge and 3.5m by 5.5m footprint but in my case all timber so not sure how much different in weight in relation to what you have done for the slab. I will find out if BW needed for addition of workshop in roof space and how that would work if the slab had been in place before BW applied for.

[Carrerahill]

13 hours ago, davidc said:

Thanks @Carrerahill . Garage with workshop i guess would be about 5m high at ridge and 3.5m by 5.5m footprint but in my case all timber so not sure how much different in weight in relation to what you have done for the slab. I will find out if BW needed for addition of workshop in roof space and how that would work if the slab had been in place before BW applied for.

The slab details I suggested are more for future proofing your build if you ever go for a new brick/block build.

 

In all honesty the slab make-up has more to do with the ground it sits on and use of the space rather than the build. 

 

If you consider you can build, in plenty of situations a house on 200mm x 600mm (less than 8inches) which will take a block cavity wall then your garage slab on the right ground conditions could be 150mm thick.

 

If you confirm exactly what you want this slab to do now and in the future I can help with a spec (I sit opposite one of our practise partners who is a structural engineer) but I would also need to know a bit about the ground make-up and the conditions locally. 

[davidc]

Many thanks @Carrerahill that is most helpful , i'm having a mini digger on site for another purpose soon so can get a look at the soil. Will post when i have a picture of the ground make up.