New build on 'old' foundations.

[Minxy]

Hi all, my name is Mel and hubby is Chris, we have 3 dogs (Romy, Lily and Tazzy) and are looking to do a self-build to get what we want in an area we like with room for our camper, we looked a new-build from the mainstream builders but can't keep the camper at home so that's a none started (plus we don't really want to live in a massive estate!).

 

We're completely totally new to all of this, although we've done work on our own home, renovating, reconfiguring etc, I've never built anything new so hoping you can help as we don't want to get in a right mess!

 

I've found a building plot which has fully planning for a 5 bed (one of 5 on the site, but none built yet), the owner started work about 10 years ago and put in the bases for two of them with the outer shell of brick work which is level with the top of the base.  I've had a good shuftie at the one I'm looking at and it seems sound (just the odd weed needs zapping!) but I'm wondering if there are any issues with a base being left for 10 years as I don't want to have to rip it all out and start again as obviously this would add a hell of a lot to the cost.  As the planning was approved 10 years ago we'd also be looking to alter it (make it a little bit smaller 'up top') but I don't think this would be an issue as the council just want something to be built rather than it be left as an eye-sore.

 

I've attached some photos of the existing base so you can see what I'm talking about - your comments/opinions would be much appreciated - I'm happy to get it looked at properly by a builder but just want an idea before I start the ball rolling.

 

Many thanks

 

Mel

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome to the forum

 

My guess is the vendor built the foundations to lock in the planning permission by "starting"  That won't stop you changing thee plans but a new planning application will be needed. He probably did that as 10 years ago was the financial crisis and he probably thought nobody would buy it then, so had to do something to ensure the PP did not lapse.

 

I would contact your building control and also ask the vendor if building control had any input into the building of the foundations. You want to be sure building control are happy with what has been built so far before you proceed.

 

the one thing that would concern me is that is a block and beam floor, I would want to know if there is any insulation underneath it.  I would be assuming not and designing the build to have insulation above the B&B floor.

 

Also find out about services, has it yet been connected to the drains or is that still to be done etc etc.

[Russell griffiths]

How does the price change from the plot that is built to one of the ones that isn’t started, are they all for sale?

if you had a virgin one you wouldn’t be locked into that shape. 

You need to get a set of drawings and see what the design was, as being built 10 years ago you will need to add more insulation to the top of that floor than in the previous design. 

Is there the height to get all the insulation in without messing up the planning if there was a height restriction on the original design. 

You will be looking at adding minimum 150mm of insulation plus 75mm screed plus 20mm floor finish, so your finished floor will be 250 ish above what you see in that pic. 

Go back to the planners and check you can build it to comply with current regs before you commit 

 

i personaly would not want to pay much for any work that is done as I would rather see it go in correctly in my own eyes. 

[Minxy]

Thanks guys, I'm assuming there isn't any insulation below the floor, so had anticipated putting it on top.  The plans were fully drawn up with interior layout and exterior design etc but the 'style' is a bit old fashioned and things have moved on in terms of windows, bi-fold doors etc rather than the French doors etc of the original design.  

 

I too think the work was started to keep the planning in place as there is a letter from the Council telling them to desist until they provide fully details of brickwork, materials etc, so this, and the crises 10 years ago is probably what put the brakes on it then.  Of the 5 plots, only 2 (possibly 3) have had the groundwork started, the adjacent plot with base sold previously but I don't know for how much/when.  The other 3 plots haven't been put up for sale so I assume the owner is just trying to get something back for the ones they've invested in the ground works they've done already and I suspect the PP has now lapsed on the other 3 anyway.  As for services, they've put the soil pipes in when they built the base and the waste pipe comes out at the side but it isn't connected to the mains, so no connections to anything that I can see (no gas in village anyway).

 

Still mulling it over.

[Russell griffiths]

If you don’t like the bathroom layout it is fairly easy to lift those blocks and change the pipework

i myself have changed my mind on an en-suite and in a days work I lifted the blocks and re routed the pipe work, so don’t feel you are stuck with that layout. 

[PeterW]

12 minutes ago, Minxy said:

bit old fashioned and things have moved on in terms of windows, bi-fold doors etc rather than the French doors etc of the original design.  

 

Bifolds aren’t the bees knees and need a lot of detailing for something that could cost you £6-8k where a couple of pairs of french doors could be less than half that and be more practical. 

 

One consideration you may want to make is that the roof height and wall thickness of the house will be based on 2003/6 building regulations  insulation levels so beefing up insulation in the floor especially could move the ridge height slightly if you want to keep the ceiling heights the same. 

 

Post the plans up here if you want comments on what can be done within the existing shell. 

[nod]

I would buy the plot and pull all that had been done out A mornings work for a man and a digger 

While it sounds drastic The foundations are the most crucial part of the build 

and what you suspect is true Tge land owner won’t have taken much care when he installed the slab

Starting a fresh would allow you to have everything just right and prevent issues with floor buildup due to having to put insulation and screed o top of what is already there  

[Jeremy Harris]

There's also the question as to whether the existing beam and block, plus foundations will meet building regs or not.  There's no way of really being able to tell now, so unless there is a record of building control sign off, together with the original foundation drawings, then it's all a bit of an unknown.  Far better to just rip it out and start again, as apart from giving more design freedom it also removes any doubts, and possible hassle with building control, over what's there.  Building regs have moved on a fair bit in ten years, too, so what was OK in terms of floor insulation then most probably wouldn't be OK now.

[Mr Punter]

If the previous developer had PP for the whole site the consent may be locked in for all by just starting one plot.  If you stick with what is there you will be constrained with layout and possibly need to build cavity wall with limited space for insulation. Does not look like all the floor has been grouted so you can mess about with pipes without too much damage.

[Temp]

 

Quote

I too think the work was started to keep the planning in place as there is a letter from the Council telling them to desist until they provide fully details of brickwork, materials etc, so this, and the crises 10 years ago is probably what put the brakes on it then.

 

To extend PP beyond the normal 3 or 5 years the work has to be _lawfully_ started not just started.

 

It sounds like he may not have got necessary planning conditions discharged before starting work. For example there might be a condition requiring materials be approved before work starts on site. If he failed to get that discharged the PP might well have expired some years ago. In which case you would need new PP just to build the original design.

 

It should be possible to get that PP but watch out for policy changes that may have occurred since it was originally granted. 

 

You should ask the planners if they consider the site still has valid PP that could be implemented. If I was selling the plot I would increase its value by either getting a certificate of lawful development confirming work has lawfully "started" or renew the PP.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Temp

[scottishjohn]

I know if it was here -in scotland and the planning was for 5 in one development  ,then ALL the roads+ services + street lamps for ALL the sites would have to be in and up to council spec before you could move into any of them --so a check with council before buying 

Edited July 1, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

I would have a serious talk with the vendor and see if you can buy one of the plots where work has not started, make the offer subject to getting PP reinstated.  It will be less of a problem and gives you freedom for your design, without having to undo any previous work.

[Minxy]

Thanks for the useful info/advice, we've done more digging and been able to establish that the ground work was started no later than 2007, the selling agent states:

Quote

“I can confirm that in 2007 the two plots received inspections for foundations and beam and block floors. At that time the work was considered to satisfy the Building Regulations”.

The 5 plots were originally approved in 2 separate applications, one for 3 (no work started) and one for 2 (the ones with the bases), apart from materials etc approval we can't find any requirement being necessary before starting work, for example they all have individual access off an existing road rather than as a group on one large 'cul de sac' type area with a single access point, so no need to create new roads etc for them.  

 

We tried speaking to someone at the council today but the Planning Officers don't deal with 'general enquiries' except on Tuesday and Thursday mornings, so another call will be made tomorrow first thing to see what they can tell us, we've found some more info too but the most important thing is to confirm that the original planning permission is still valid and take it from there.  I've tweaked the design of the original build to meet our needs so no need to alter the actual base at all assuming it still meets today's standards.  As we're wanting to alter the design anyway I suspect we'd have to go for PP again anyway, but it would be good if we didn't have to do the base again, from both a financial and 'hassle' point of view.

 

As for asking to buy an undeveloped plot, we're not sure if they are owned by the same seller and they aren't up for sale anyway at the moment, plus the plot we are looking at has the benefit that it has a large wall running alongside it which is rather nice and in good condition, plus it has an extra 'room' on the side, about 1.8m x 5m which we assume is for a utility as it's next to where the kitchen is on the original plans, this is the only one with this and will be very useful for us as we have 3 doggies!  

 

We're considering going down the flat pack/prefab route rather than a bricks and mortar build, quicker and probably cheaper, more energy efficient and of course better 'green' credentials, so will be discussing that with the planners too - as they really want something building on the site we're hoping this will put is in a good position to get it changed to what we want rather than it being 'set in stone' (or should that be concrete! ?).  Obviously this assume we can get a flat pack/prefab one that will meet our needs and can be made to fit the existing base - I know there are various types of these 'systems', some off-the-peg designs, some totally bespoke and everything in between, so will delve into that in more detail once we've confirmed the situation with the planners.  We won't be doing the build for a while yet as we have our current place on the market and will then move out into one of our rental holiday lodges for a while which will give us the time to think more seriously about what type of build etc we go for.

 

It may end up not to be a 'goer' but we think it's worth a bit of serious research and consideration at the moment as plots in this area don't come up very often.

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, Minxy said:

We're considering going down the flat pack/prefab route rather than a bricks and mortar build, quicker and probably cheaper, more energy efficient and of course better 'green' credentials, so will be discussing that with the planners too - as they really want something building on the site we're hoping this will put is in a good position to get it changed to what we want rather than it being 'set in stone' (or should that be concrete! ?).  Obviously this assume we can get a flat pack/prefab one that will meet our needs and can be made to fit the existing base - I know there are various types of these 'systems', some off-the-peg designs, some totally bespoke and everything in between, so will delve into that in more detail once we've confirmed the situation with the planners.  We won't be doing the build for a while yet as we have our current place on the market and will then move out into one of our rental holiday lodges for a while which will give us the time to think more seriously about what type of build etc we go for.

 

It looks like the foundations have been built for a brick / block cavity wall, with a narrow cavity.  You would have real problems now trying to build up on that as a brick / block build as you would now need a wider cavity to get enough insulation in.

 

A timber frame might be feasible on that, with a brick outer, thin cavity and timber frame on the inner leaf.  The issue there is most timber frames are now 147mm wide to get enough insulation, but the inner foundation leaf is only 100mm wide.  I have seen a 147mm frame built up on a 100mm inner leaf before and building control accepted it, but it is something you would have to check with your building control.  This will of course mean all your rooms will be a little smaller as the walls will be thicker to get enough insulation.

 

As already noted you will need insulation on top of the B&B floor so factor in your raised floor level when submitting revised plans to make sure the planning permission reflects the slight increase in the buildings height.

 

I would seek some form of comfort letter from building control that they did inspect the foundations are happy with them to be retained and build to continue from them.

 

And check with the utilities the position of services, in particular water, drainage and electricity.

[Thedreamer]

This might sound a bit daft, if you buy a plot which has already had the foundations put in and the previous owner didn't want the building warrant to lapse and continued to to renew could somebody buy the land and the old building warrant and build the original house to the old building regulations.

 

I wouldn't want to do this if it was me for many reasons, but could it be done?

[Jeremy Harris]

7 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

This might sound a bit daft, if you buy a plot which has already had the foundations put in and the previous owner didn't want the building warrant to lapse and continued to to renew could somebody buy the land and the old building warrant and build the original house to the old building regulations.

 

I wouldn't want to do this if it was me for many reasons, but could it be done?

 

In England and Wales (not sure about Scotland or NI) then the set of building regulations that apply will be those that applied when the house building regs submission was  initially approved.  This assumes that there was a building regs submission and that the foundations and B&B floor do have building regs sign off.

 

However, it would make no sense to build a house now to 10 year old building regs, as quite apart from anything else it would be even less energy efficient, and cost more to run, than a house built to the pretty poor building regs we have now.

[ProDave]

In Scotland, you do indeed keep building to the building regs in force when you started, but ONLY if you keep extending the building warrant, I have extended mine twice now.  At each extension BC want to know what stage you are at and the reason for extending.

 

At 10 years since start I very much doubt the original building control has been extended, and if you let it lapse it would be a new building warrant to current regs. At least in Scotland.

[Temp]

12 hours ago, Minxy said:

, apart from materials etc approval we can't find any requirement being necessary before starting work, 

 

So there was a condition that required the materials be approved before starting work. If that wasn't discharged its very likely the planning permission expired. The seller should be able to tell you if this condition was discharged but you are right to check with the planners on its status. 

 

You might find the planners aren't prepared to tell you its status in writing. Such a letter wouldn't be binding on them anyway. To be 100% safe legally you would need them to issue a certificate of lawfulness for which there is a fee and time delay.

[Thedreamer]

5 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

In England and Wales (not sure about Scotland or NI) then the set of building regulations that apply will be those that applied when the house building regs submission was  initially approved.  This assumes that there was a building regs submission and that the foundations and B&B floor do have building regs sign off.

 

However, it would make no sense to build a house now to 10 year old building regs, as quite apart from anything else it would be even less energy efficient, and cost more to run, than a house built to the pretty poor building regs we have now.

I agree would make little sense to do this just a hypothetical question. 

[Minxy]

On 02/07/2019 at 11:00, Temp said:

 

So there was a condition that required the materials be approved before starting work. If that wasn't discharged its very likely the planning permission expired. The seller should be able to tell you if this condition was discharged but you are right to check with the planners on its status. 

 

On 01/07/2019 at 11:46, Temp said:

To extend PP beyond the normal 3 or 5 years the work has to be _lawfully_ started not just started.

 

It sounds like he may not have got necessary planning conditions discharged before starting work. For example there might be a condition requiring materials be approved before work starts on site. If he failed to get that discharged the PP might well have expired some years ago. In which case you would need new PP just to build the original design.

 

It should be possible to get that PP but watch out for policy changes that may have occurred since it was originally granted. 

 

You should ask the planners if they consider the site still has valid PP that could be implemented. If I was selling the plot I would increase its value by either getting a certificate of lawful development confirming work has lawfully "started" or renew the PP.

 

Thankfully all is well regarding PP - I've been in touch with the Planning Office and Building Control who have informed me that the 'material details etc' were submitted and a site check was carried out in 2013 with approval being given for work to continue, so the PP is valid and the site 'lawful'.  There's a chap in the Building Control office who they call their 'Rain Man' as he can remember everything and has been there for a long time ... he recalled the site and the issue regarding work starting so was able to tell the chap I was actually speaking to where to find the relevant approval info!  That's some memory!   I talked to the planners about changing the design/construction method and they seemed amenable, or we could just build it to the existing plans.  I also asked about 3 tall crappy very tall conifers directly across the road from the front of the plot and the planners seem to think they are part of the verge so Council owned, as we'd like these to be removed to open up the view we'd have to get approval for this but as they're not native trees, and don't offer any benefit to the locality (they're really an eyesore) we should hopefully be able to have them removed, even if we had to pay for it ourselves it would be worth it.

 

On 01/07/2019 at 11:15, JSHarris said:

There's also the question as to whether the existing beam and block, plus foundations will meet building regs or not.  There's no way of really being able to tell now, so unless there is a record of building control sign off, together with the original foundation drawings, then it's all a bit of an unknown.  Far better to just rip it out and start again, as apart from giving more design freedom it also removes any doubts, and possible hassle with building control, over what's there.  Building regs have moved on a fair bit in ten years, too, so what was OK in terms of floor insulation then most probably wouldn't be OK now.

 

I've found out that when the adjacent plot was sold earlier in the year the buyers had both plots checked by his builder (the new owner is a developer) and they were both deemed to be okay to use as they are.  As I mentioned above BC signed them off.

We've revisited the site today, along with looking at others too which we were interested in, and this one if by far the best:  price, size, location and views wise ... something which I really would like.  We've managed to negotiate a good price with the owners' agent so even if we had to remove and replace the base etc, it still makes it a good buy.

 

Just gotta sort out a conveyancer/solicitor now to get the ball rolling ... any recommendations?

 

Oh, yet again many thanks for all the help/advice, it's been really useful.

[Temp]

36 minutes ago, Minxy said:

Thankfully all is well regarding PP - I've been in touch with the Planning Office and Building Control who have informed me that the 'material details etc' were submitted and a site check was carried out in 2013 with approval being given for work to continue, so the PP is valid and the site 'lawful'.  There's a chap in the Building Control office who they call their 'Rain Man' as he can remember everything and has been there for a long time ... he recalled the site and the issue regarding work starting so was able to tell the chap I was actually speaking to where to find the relevant approval info!  That's some memory! 

 

That's very good news.

 

36 minutes ago, Minxy said:

I also asked about 3 tall crappy very tall conifers directly across the road from the front of the plot and the planners seem to think they are part of the verge so Council owned, as we'd like these to be removed to open up the view we'd have to get approval for this but as they're not native trees, and don't offer any benefit to the locality (they're really an eyesore) we should hopefully be able to have them removed, even if we had to pay for it ourselves it would be worth it.

 

Good luck with that. Some people see any tree as sacred even if it's damaging better quality trees nearby.

 

I've got a line of assorted trees down the side of my plot (now garden) that we have never actually wanted to remove. During the planning process I had to get a tree survey done and without prompting the arboriculturist described them as "self seeded rubbish that he would remove if it was his plot" and "removing them would benefit the nice beech trees in the church yard". The council tree officer obviously disagreed and required me to erect fencing to protect them from damage during construction even though it was nowhere near them. More than two years later I had to cut up a fallen branch with a chain saw. That started a rumor I was cutting down these trees. Suddenly everyone is out walking their dog through the church yard. When I explained what I was doing they replied "we were worried you were cutting down the trees".   

 

You might consider offering to replace them with native (slow growing!) trees.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Temp

[Minxy]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

You might consider offering to replace them with native (slow growing!) trees.

Yes, that's what I was thinking of doing if needs be, native trees would be much more appropriate for the setting as the vast majority in that tree line are already ... the first picture is the view partly 'hidden' by the trees at present, the others (courtesy of Google!) show:

 

1:  the lane (plot on left)

2 & 3:  Plot to the left, trees to the right

4:  view of the trees from one of the rear corners of the plot

5:  trees with the plot behind.

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

Oh  yes I see what you mean.