SuperJohnG

I'm interested to understand more also what value. My job is in Sales (I'm actually an engineer) a lot of my time is spent building large scale proposals from a few hundred k to £10+million. A very large part being understanding costs as we are bespoke project business not all of it has been done before and we need to estimate costs. But I can be working on lots of quotes at once but cant finish them all hence I need to price quickly. What my aim is when I am pricing is to reduce our exposure to risk as a business. If it costs more than I estimate then I eat up my margin...if I have really messed up I chew the margin up and then I'm essentially completely losing money. For me deciding on whether or not you need a QS is just the same..how much risk can you expose yourself to? I.e. can you suck up a 20% contingency? Or does it need to come in on budget? If you want to mitigate the risk of going over budget early on then get a QS or if you feel confident enough in your own abilities then do without. This is where I am in limbo...as I'm very confident in my budgeting and contingency planning (10%) but sometimes....you just dont know what you dont know... A bigger area for worrying about costs would be utilities and professional fees and finance costs. These are the things that will blind side you.

@ProDave thanks I thought it was this. thanks @jamieled . Surprised as someone using a burn supply..I do have aburn running through mys site but never considered it. Would have thought that woudl have been major hassle in terms of purifying it? I only seems to hear stories of boreholes going wrong - but you never hear good stories. was it a large estate. generally it seems to be a yield issue which is much less risky for a single family home. Thanks - I am surprised to see that there is no input from anyone that has a borehole? Is it just a complete lack of people doing it? @Jeremy Harris (now I've figured out your new tag) did you consider doing the topside yourself?

I like passivhaus and protecting the environment...but that's all one step too far for me. good video though!

We are in the west coast of Scotland, which is typically very wet (thanks Gulf stream!) but that hasn't even been considered, it would need to be mains or borehole so we have a reliable supply. Also from what I have quickly read you are not allowed to use it as potable water.

I'm currently facing a (minor) dilemma in the final points before I conclude the purchase of my plot. I've sorted most things, power was easy to get a formal quotation (albeit sore at £18k) and get agreement from the two farmers, to cross their land, couldn't have been more straightforward. The water though is a PITA. The main is 500m away, 400 of those on a B road. I have the costs from Scottish water to do the connection, (circa £1k) but I was hoping to drop right into a field a go round the edge and backfill and reinstate but that farmer won't have it. Hence I a now need to try another route to avoid digging up 400m on the road. As digging up the road and reinstating will be horrifically expensive in excess of £25k I am estimating so far (ball park figure from one utility company was £50k - which was ridiculous). Hence the borehole option I have been slowly looking into as a backstop really if I can get the price down but it's looking possibly more likely. If a can save significant amounts £5k plus I'd go for it. I have contacted two companies who have given ballpark figures. First guy said to budget £20k but it would likely be completed for £14k. The second said to budget up to £25k. Of course in true buildhub fashion I have set about ways to rationalise, derisk and reduce costs. I have read the three borehole threads on here and also @JSHARRIS (for some reason tag won't work?) blog and woes, which was a PITA but to me are just one of those things you really can't control. Has anyone else opted for a borehole? particularly in Scotland. I have contacted Raeburn drilling and Highwater scotland for pricing, does anyone have any real world experience of completing this in Scotland? is there any companies they would recommend? I have checked the BGS website (see below) the red dot being my plot. Its actually located at the bottom point of a some hills and is a low point so I'm hoping water isn't too deep. There is also a spring within 100m which used to feed a farm, but they went on the mains as it used to dry up in summer, albeit, it was a spring not a borehole. Also. In an effort to control and reduce costs, has anyone undertaken the topside themselves? It doesn't seem particularly taxiing once you have tested the water and ideintified the treatment required, this could be purchased direct to reduce costs. E.g. One company quoted the Grundfos pump at £2.5k, but it's only £1k. One thing I can't seem to find easily ('ve not tried to look that hard) is how the pump is supported, is it just hung on a stainless wire and the water comes up through a riser (MDPE?). Any help pro's/ cons appreciated.

I'm quite surprised to see these aren't fixed to the floor.

They are the stuff of nightmares. Sp at all costs I'll be trying to minimise and avoid. Buildstore are laughable not very helpful I find from an point of view of pre planning. They spout some great stuff atbthe shows but so far my reality has been they are not here to help that easily. I do t mind paying a premium for a good smooth service but not for nothing. They have two fees just for them in there.

@Christine Walker Yes they did say a few months for wayleaves. By last minute I really mean the last point which would work with the schedule. I will probably pay for it 6 months prior to scheduled house being wind and watertight and just suck up the fact it's 20k gone at the start, but it is built into cashflow. Scottish water obviously gave us the POC charge at £1k. I will use a friends civil contracts business who has is an approved contractor who can get road opening permits as I trust him and I can help which will keep costs down. But for a comparison I called a local utility contractor to get a ballpark figure for trenching my water pipe (32mm mdpe) 400m from the main POC to my plot. He quoted £25k if its in the verge and 50k if its under the road.....em...nope thanks. A borehole would be £15-20K Fully completed and opertaional (That was a budget figure from Raeburn drilling).

@Ferdinand It is still an area where i need to focus much more attention and properly do all the finance scenarios and calculations so we can see the impact. But loosely... Current house: £150k value, no mortgage. Flat: £90k mortgage (actual value £90k or less.....an unfortunate casualty of the 2008 recession. Originally bought for £120k) Total development cost: £400-420k Required finance to do self build: £300k. (not including any properties above) Hence, I was originally looking at staying in current home and taking a full self build mortgage for the full amount (£300k). It would look like this.. (pains me each time I see how much I have to give away! to finance people in fees). High level mortgage drawdown interest referenced above: (actually for a 12 mont period with 9 month build...) The interest payments would be halved here by moving back to flat but possibly negated by the fact we have to pay the flat mortgage (400/month) but at least those payments were paying off my mortgage) We only get 450/month for rent. Plus selling it would free up £150k and provide ready cash so we can head off any cash issues and not so reliant on mortgage companies. So yes - definitely worth mentioning thanks and an area I need to to do the hard and fats numbers on. But need to get firm on what it's actually going to costs and how much I need to borrow. I was unsure how well a mortgage company would react to releasing equity from current home to fund self build. but this is a very cheap option at circa £125/month on interest only against £120 (80% ltv) plus would allow us to stay here in comfort!

@gwebstech As others have said I the services should be the first port of call prior to anything I would say as you may not even be able to get them without losing a considerable chunk of money. I am in the process of finalising my plot purchase, but I included clauses which said I had to be able to get power and water to the site and at reasonable costs. This allowed me the time to go and get official quotes and derisk these costs prior to purchase. My power comes from 400m away across two fields with different owners (both whom I have discussed this with for wayleaves to ensure they are happy) which will cost me 18K. Water was only 1k to connect the main but it is 400m away up the road so I am just awaiting costs to trench the verge and ensure it is reasonable. As you say you have to pay these upfront, but here in Scotland the DNO - (Scottish power energy networks) provide a detailed quote which is valid for 3 months, so you can get it all in place and then hit the button at the right time pay it and then it will be installed to minimise your time between outlay and getting power onsite. Similarly Scottish waters quote is valid for 12 months so at least I know there is capacity and the costs wont change once I conclude the missives on the plot. I would be focus on getting those quotes.

@JSHarris so 1200 budgeted but a knowing and controlled increase for upgraded finishes rather than surprises @Christine Walker and @Redoctober I seems to make much better sense to do this, i just wasn't quite sure how to allow for the labour which seems such a large chuck of unknown. albeit plumbing I will do myself along with MVHR, ASHP. @Thedreamer For us, we plan on moving back in to our let flat but we have two young kids and albeit better than a caravan..its not somewhere i want to spend two years. Not for a point of rushing but actually to limit the interest on the loan from buildstore. In saying that it will be fairly limited to £150k to complete build. Originally we wanted to stay in current house but selling it frees up £140k...so better that than paying heavy interest. @Thedreamer m2 I suppose doesn't matter to me. However the overall planning of a budget at early stages it is required to quantify what you can and cant do and an estimate of the house size you can build to allow you to start that plan. Ultimately final value to us doesn't matter as we will build this as our forever home but still I would like it to be worth more than it costs me to build it! @ThedreamerYes cashflow is a major factor which I am planning for , but ultimately it doesn't matter to the cost per m^2 budget value (with the exception of avoiding paying VAT on goods by getting through builder whilst incurring a premium for said service). so it doesmatter...but not relevant to my query if we like... @AliMcLeodI'm hoping that most people do it the way i do it. Really in my mind only build from bare ground to a completed house should be included which includes all material and labour Plot, services, professional fees etc should be excluded. I suppose there should be notes on foundations complexities and finish levels as they are major factors but that should help with reasons for figures that are well off the median line. @AliMcLeodYes - thats already done along with all the planning for trenching etc, along with sewage treatment plant, road etc. it's a high cost for me at around 40-50k to get everything ready to start works but it's known costs which can allows me to mitigate them from the outset. @SteamyTea i consider m^2 prices to be once you have had your vat back. A final point of what it actually costs you. It shouldn't affect the price but if the unforseen happens then what happened was my query But realistically...if you do you homework and plan appropriately then theoretically you will never use that contingency. @redtop Lord have mercy........were you building on a cliff?! I have a large open flat plot..albeit you can never be complacent. I am hoping the risk is minimised.......picture attached. I can't tell you how long it's taken me to write this reply. But thanks so far for all the input.

All great responses so far and once the trick or treaters are gone I'll get some replies up. It does show a good variance on opinions.

'Erm...erm don't worry about it as you'll have purchased a structural warranty' Now we all know how much use they are. My question was really what warranty did they offer on the kit..but it was nothing which surprised me.

@PeterW Central belt Scotland @MoonshineI'm basing this purely on build costs for everything from bare ground through to the fully completed house. Ignoring landscaping and any professional fees, finance fees, planning fees, services etc. The reason for that being all those costs are either known at this stage or very accurate and risk removed. Hence I associate my costs/m^2 for materials to build the house and labour associated with that. @Conor thats a good approach and probably a good way to further refine the build costs and contingency. I have a flat( 4 acre) plot in open countryside...I haven't actually worked out a groundwork costs but I am hoping it will be on the relatively low terms of risk and issues which can pop up.

@Olly P Good on you...that scares the life out me. If I was aiming fro those figures id be able to go to 300 instead of 200! @scottishjohn how much bigger???

I'm very interested in this also. I was at a seminar for a SIPS supplier and ask ednthe question about what happens if they go into administration and there is a latent defect in the panels system or similar, which has then led to me questioning how is your money safe when making particularly large purchases going from the point of order to receiving delivery. The main one being if you've outlaid 50-100k to a TF/ SIPS supplier and they go bust as you would have no way of knowing this was going to happen unless you seen the up to date balance sheet but even at that it could be completely fabricated evidence.

I’ve had varying conversations and trawled hundreds threads of built cost /m2 to try and rationalise my budget and reduce my overall anxiety towards price and also to be realistic. I think it’s important to be prepared upfront and if its not going to work reduce the house size from the outset. I’m shooting for £1200/m2 because it suits my ‘ideal’ budget of 240k for a 200 m2 house, which I believe to be a decent size, to suit my family, I have also allowed the obligatory 10% in reserve which will be ring fenced and only come into play if required. So theoretically you could say I’ve allowed £1320/ m2 But my concern is that it is my 1200 is driving that budget and house size. I’m aware that I wont know until the end that actual costs which could be much less going by some peoples build…but also could be much more. (I doubt I would breach 1700/m2). As much as I’d love an answer to exactly how much it costs I know those answers are purely subjective. But what I do want to understand is how others have approached this from the outset? Did you wing it and pray for the best? Did you plan thoroughly and then knowing you wouldn’t meet your budget reduce the house size before starting or did you plan to use that contingency? For context. My plan is to use a kit supplier to supply and erect a closed panel system, whether it be SIPS or Valutherm, get it wind and watertight then proceed with managing my own subcontractors. I don’t want the build to last years…ideally no more than 12 months. I will also correctly plan the build, schedule, cashflow and take the time to do this before even thinking of breaking ground to ensure we can derisk and identify as many problems beforehand rather than on the fly. I work full time, so it will be very difficult and we are prepared for this, ideally I’d use a main contractor but I want to avoid this to save costs…or is this just a false economy? So really….I’m asking how long is a piece of string??! I suppose my worry/anxiety/ panic is based around…what happens when it costs more…how did you deal with it. If you’d been naïve and hoped it would cost less but it cost more how did you remedy that situation?? Any pearls of constructive wisdom…greatly appreciated.

@Firsttimer Do worry too much about where they are. Find someone you like the look of their work and know they have experience of your build preference, are happy with their prices and most importantly you get on with. I'm central belt down south of Glasgow and I'm possibly going to use someone in Inverurie! (RJM Architects - if you want to check them out). I did come across a few last night I may talk to: Karen Parry Architects (Architectural designer glasgow) Paterson gordon architecture I have since discovered instagram for finding these people as they are happy to show their work and i can accurately judge if it is my style and how passionate they are.

It is a new build house. Planning in place for an existing house already, but I will be putting a new planning application in to change this. But regardless. Planning application only needs outline plans, shape size, finish etc to get 'planning permission' which is fine, this can be done from outline drawings regardless of the final method of construction. The building warrant AFAIK, deals with the structure and compliance with building regulations, hence you would need to know the method of construction prior to applying (I'm assumignto show the BCO the cross-sectional build up of the walls). But if you go out to tender to say a SIPS supplier and a TF supplier these are different methods of construction (albeit similar) so one of the other would maybe not be able to provide a quotation as the building warrant would not reflect their particular offering. It would be bottomed out at the design stage as above but theoretically you have to choose then if you are going SIPS or TF. For info - no builder, TF/SIPS supplier to supply and erect kit which I have chosen. then I'll deal with the rest.

Hi, I have a quote from two different architects. Who have both included a stage for building warrant application prior to the stage of going out to tender with the package to select a kit supplier. How can you get a building warrant without knowing what the construction etc is? for example if I had a design but hadn't decided if I was going TF or SIPS?

@Ferdinand They were the first architect.....came across great. But I felt that once we were going to get seriously into it that I might fall into the not so important category.

I’ve talked to a few architects /architectural designers and still to fully decide who I would like to go with or whether I might use an in house design service. However one thing I am noticing is the lack of ‘compatible’ architects in my area. I originally had my mind set on a well-known self-build architect who done fixed price (circa £25k to do everything, which included CDM and SE) but as time went on discussing with them I felt my budget (£240-270k for build @ £1200/m^2) was not really their preferred market and it put me off a little plus they are 80 miles from where the plot would be. I then came across an experienced AD who I am meeting on site this week, even though I haven’t actually finalised the plot purchase as I wait for a few things to fall in to place, but he seems to match my expectations on price (£12k including SE) and is experienced in SIPS and timber frame. But he is from 200 miles away. My only reservation so far is the distance and the ease of being able to go through those initial stages of design collaboration. So the last few days I spent some time phoning local architects in the Ayrshire/ Glasgow area. But struggling with people who understand what I want to do. They are either way out there and looking for customers who wants a turnkey managed process and a % based fee. Or they are cheap but don’t necessarily understand modern building methods or tools. Ideally – I will use an Architect/AD to help with design, planning and building warrant. From there then contract with TF/SIPS supplier to supply and erect and then manage subcontractors myself. The selected person would ideally provide a fixed price and be well versed in modern methods of construction for TF/SIPS as above and understand building to a budget, but I seem to be struggling to find this locally. So two questions: Do we think distance is an issue? (I know we can do everything online, but sometimes a 5 minute meeting can do what takes days be email). Does anyone have any good Architects / AD contacts in the Glasgow / Ayrshire area who are well versed as above? Can anyone tell me what I actually want - as I swing between doing it myself / using and AD / Using in house design almost daily ? I am a Chartered engineer (mechanical design) so I can do all the learning and planning and managing bits and very easily understand and draw my house. But I believe there is value in using a professional with regards to house design to do things that I wouldn’t think of. However I don’t want an architect who is away with the fairies or not on my wavelength. Hence I feel like an AD is where I need to be because they can add this value at a reasonable cost. Note: I’m not looking for fancy glazed gables with spiral stairs. I’m looking for good fabric first well thought out functional house with some (budget) appropriate features which take it from what I would design to something a bit better that flows well and make sense for my family and needs. A pragmatic approach to house design with a little bit of architectural flair.

That's what I wasnt sure of. I'd downloaded a sample but it had no reference size or grid lines so with nothing to reference you can tell what one measurement of in it is to get a scale.

Thanks for the offer but managed to get it. I'm aware it doesn't have scale, but if you have no reference size you cant do anything.

@Temp many thanks - emapsite had exactly what I needed!