puntloos

One question - how, and where in this system would you add an additional earth stake? If grid really is cut off, it might be needed?

It's not a generator - it's a solar inverter with batteries. But (.. gray area speaking here..) - the principle is the same, the EPS out from the inverter just provides 3-phase 400V, and will start doing so when you push the button, so to speak.

Note I have to have 3 phase, but other than that, sounds good. Do you guys have any wiring diagrams that you used and are happy with?

(I debated putting this in the solar forums but none of them really apply here - and this is, I think, equally applicable to e.g. diesel-powered generators) The basic idea of switchover is this: With a switch like this I feel somewhat cool frankenstein (seems like frankenstein also has 3 phase!) but many manuals I find suggest that you make things really clever with a secondary consumer unit and select some special critical loads (fridge, networking maybe etc) to be put on your backup. All well and good, and generators (or solar inverters) have their limits of how much they can provide and/or how long they can provide it for but: 1/ Am I correct that specifying specific eps loads will limit you in what you can run in grid outages. (everything that is not an EPS load can't be powered during outage- TV, kettle, if I'm feeling bold) 2/ Is it true going the EPS load way is very complex - tons of extra cabling with separations etc? 3/ Do I need a separate Earth Stake - if grid is really gone you can't depend on its N and E either, I think? 4/ Is it hard to make this automatic? The most obvious way is to have an Automatic Transfer Switch - which will detect grid and if no grid switch to backup (turning on the backup is another matter, but can perhaps be achieved independently..) Anyone have experience with suchlike?

I'd like to put a control panel central on a wall next to a staircase. Feels like it should be 'central on the wall' but a silly question is: what's central. Central to the physical stone structure (option A, Below), or centered between architrave and the wall - option B Looking at the render I'm tempted to go to option B.. thoughts?

Question on this one, if you have GSE, do you still need further ventilation such as https://www.nicholsonsts.com/products/airtrak/ ?

May I present, the magical Fireplace Except.. - The fire is fake, an opti-myst device (effectively a 'lamp') - The stone is fake(ish), it's stone cladding on a box - https://www.century-stone.co.uk/products/stone-cladding/limestone-eldorado - The fireplace actually houses a R32 Fan Coil Unit to cool the room And of course there's a 65" TV in front. Maybe this side view pictures it better: Currently it's designed with very little tolerances, the TV stacked up against the fan coil unit. Big question: How would you allow access to the FCU. Our main idea is to have allow the entire black back panel to be removable. Not quite sure how to safely secure it in place for 'normal operation' but some type of latch system that's when undone will allow the panel+tv+mantle and possibly ..+fireplace to come forward and out? Has anyone ever seen such a design? Any suggestions on what works and what doesn't? This seems mildly interesting: https://help.framemytv.com/tv-art-covers/tv-art-installation/integrated-mount-system-for-recessed-tvs

Obviously I only copy/pasted from their own site - https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/gse-in-roof-mounting-system-portrait - and the guy in question did add 23x this item. I think something screwy. is going on. I will certainly challenge them on this part, as JohnMo suggested, a more reasonable price per panel seems in the area of 50 quid (2 trays needed @ 22 GBP apparently) and then some screws, tape nuts and bolts. Did you design your system yourself?

Kit includes: Mid Clamp BLACK H16 GSE Clamp Wedges Twin Pack ( 2x Left / 2x Right ) GSE Flashing Hook GSE Joint EDPM Pre Drilled Self-Tapping Screw + GSE Washer (Pack of 100) Pre-compressed seal roll (5.5m) Lateral Flashing - UNIVERSAL - 1290MM – BLACK NEW DPO GSE Rooflex Flexible Sealing Strip 330mm x 5m GSE Portrait Frame

Yep they're useful as a "list of quantities" but they are pretty expensive overall.

When was this quote/invoice done?

Also as a side concern I understand that concrete tiiles are 'sealed' and if you cut them you expose them to the elements.. is there some way to properly re-seal them?

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/5178047-half-portrait-frame-1650-1135 22.27 😃 But I still frankly haven't heard a good reason why to do GSE in the first place - what's your take on that discussion? Piece of plastic, nail the panels through it, Bob's your uncle?

Basicaly GSE is now one kit - https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/gse-in-roof-mounting-system-portrait?_pos=1&_psq=gse&_ss=e&_v=1.0 - 98 GBP. It is kinda outrageous that it's more expensive than a panel.

One more update. Here's my final math: Item Brand Model count Power TotalPower Cost exVat Total Total if 32 panel Panel JA JAM54S-30-420-GR-BF 23 420 9660 83 £1,909 £2,656 Inverter Solax X3-HYBRID-G4-12.0 1 12 12 1953 £1,953 £1,953 Battery Pylontech force 14.21 Pylontech force 14.21 1 14.21 14.21 4397 £4,397 £4,397 Mounting kit GSE mounting kit GSE mounting kit 23 £98.00 £2,254 £3,136.00 Subtotal Mat £10,513 £12,142 OH/P £841 £971 Install est 4000 £4,000 £5,565.00 Total ex VAT £15,354 £18,678 Sooo that seems to be half the price of my faithful installers and much better 'side gear' - 14kW battery, 12kW inverter. That's all from https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/420w-mono-perc-half-cell-mbb-black-frame-gr-mc4-solar-panel - they have all components I need, and that fit together (some inverters only want to work with their own brand battery etc). Might even get a small discount for doing it all together.

Forticrete minislate on battens and counter battens Air breather membrane Klober Permo or similar 100mm Celotex or similar PIR insulation 197mm truss chord as per engineers' design 200mm Earthwool/Glasswool insulation fill in between Vapour barrier membrane 25mm air gap 12.5mm plasterboard finished with 3mm skim and paint with the minislate: Dimensions Length : 270mm. Hanging length : 243mm. Width : 495mm. Cover width : 470mm. Pitch : 22.5° to 29° pitch. 30° to 70° pitch. Batten size : 38mm x 25mm for spans up to 450mm.

So... if you were forced to install a solar array into your roof... would you use GSE at all?

Nothing is obvious for an amateur, I appreciate you taking the time for this! Well, as mentioned the landscape ones are too big, there are no GSE trays for this. (which brings us back to the discussion if one needs GSE at all... Other than some of the guiding lines it actually is symmetrical, no? Here's a bit more tidy version: Here's a real picture that's "curving around a window'.. I'm not sure if it's "ugly" or "okay" but this roof is pretty far off the ground so I'm not sure it'll be too horrible.. And for what it's worth it's pretty similar to a design we got from a professional installer, who is proposing 30,000 for this one. (ignore the panels on the flat roof)

If that's the case (and it certainly sounds logical!) then what's the point of a complicated system like GSE? The only thing I can kind-of think of is ventilation, panels get fairly hot in the direct sun which drops their performance (slightly ironic, solar panels that perform worse in the sun..). If something provides spacing below the panel it might cool things better?

Sadly none of your links are "mounting system only" - all of them (except GSE) want you to buy their panels, and are for reasons.. not mentioning their prices.

Ha, I wondered the same thing. All a tray seems to do is complicate things... for.. reasons?

Here's the difference between using the larger panels and the 'standard' panels: Mixing Portrait+Landscape, 450M (Big - 2094x1038): 10800W Landscape only, 450M (Big - 2094x1038): 9900W Mixing Portrait+Landscape, 410M (Standard - 1722x1133): 9840W Portrait Only 410M (Standard - 1722x1133): 9430W All in all even the 'standard portrait' approach is not terrible, and there are good tolerances around obstructions, windows etc. Perhaps I should just stick to standard portrait...

I think.. you mean lenghtening a tray? Maybe so.. not sure if it's going to be too resistant to the elements? Eh I guess it's plastic.. but it sounds like a huge hassle. Of course, but in my particular case Here is one of the reasons: the "standard" sized longi (red) is very tight, probably impossible to fit under the window in my roof since it's 1134 wide. The yellow "long" one is 1038 wide. It probably fits (citation needed..). Problem is that at CEF at least, the only trays they have are: 1650x1100 and 1650x1135. Neither match *any* solar panel that CEF has on offer. Or am I missing something? Tradesparky has many more options but still strangely nothing that *exactly* fits to any of the known sizes. Are we by default expected to start cutting these trays to size? I guess the main point of these trays is to protect the roof, with the white bits safely covered by the panel, and the black bits protecting the roof?

After my math-doing in this topic: I agree it's not worth it. I was under the impression that better performance panels already exist in Asia, and it seems that it's simply not true, there are just different sizes, and _perhaps_ slightly better prices if everything turns out amazingly but it indeed doesn't seem to be worth the hassle at all. My main concern right now is designing panels that fit optimally in a roof.. I think I am close to a good solution but it's still pretty difficult to figure out. For example - I think this panel - the longi 450 might fit very nicely on my roof in landscape mode, but I can't find confirmation that there are GSE trays that will match this size.

Updates: 1/ I made a mistake in my spreadsheet calculating the watt/sqm, but thankfully the final 'value for money' column and therefore the conclusions stand. Here's the corrected one: Shop Brand Type SizeY SizeX Watt Price ex m2 W/GBP W/sqm PanelEst TotalW TotalCost URL Alibaba jingsun JAM132D-710 2384 1303 710 126 3.11 5.63 229 18 12780 2268 2285 GBP cef longi LR5-54HIH-410M 1722 1134 410 80 1.95 5.13 210 21 8610 1680 cityplumb Longi LR4-60HIH-370M 1755 1038 370 72.6 1.82 5.1 203 21 7770 1524.6 tradesparky JA JAM54S30-410 1722 1134 410 80.76 1.95 5.08 210 21 8610 1695.96 Alibaba JA JAM72D42 2465 1134 630 125 2.8 5.04 225 18 11340 2250 2249 USD tradesparky DMEG DM410M10 1708 1134 410 82 1.94 5 212 26 10660 2132 cef longi LR4-72HIH 2094 1038 450 90 2.17 5 207 21 9450 1890 cef trina DE09.08R 1762 1134 425 88 2 4.83 213 21 8925 1848 cef longi LR5-66HIH-500M 2093 1134 500 106 2.37 4.72 211 21 10500 2226 cityplumb Sharp Nujc400B 1722 1134 400 87 1.95 4.6 205 21 8400 1827 tradesparky JA JAM72S30-545 2278 1134 545 122 2.58 4.47 211 21 11445 2562 tradesparky JA JAM72S20-455 2112 1052 455 105 2.22 4.33 205 21 9555 2205 renugen jinko Eagle 315Wp 1650 992 315 77 1.64 4.09 192 26 8190 2002 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTB-425M 1722 1134 425 108 1.95 3.94 218 21 8925 2268 Not Yet in UK longi LR5-72HBD-555M 2278 1134 550 140 2.58 3.93 213 21 11550 2940 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTH-435M 1722 1134 435 112 1.95 3.88 223 21 9135 2352 renugen jinko Eagle 335Wp 1684 1020 335 87 1.72 3.85 195 26 8710 2262 tradesparky canad CS6R-435H 1722 1134 435 122 1.95 3.57 223 21 9135 2562 tradesparky Trina TSM-425W 1762 1134 425 137 2 3.1 213 21 8925 2877 easypv Euren Zebra 340 1684 1002 340 121 1.69 2.81 201 26 8840 3146 renogy renogi RNG-50D-SS-UK 581 509 50 54 0.3 0.93 169 21 1050 1134 An important thing to notice therefore is that the W/SQM is surprisingly similar for all these cells. Only that jingsun on at the top seems to be an outlier and ha, I am not sure I trust those. W/GBP is the column to pay attention to, and that still says that longi is probably the best value for money, JA not far behind. It might matter to you which panels barely fit, and which ones barely don't fit if your roof dimensions are teetering on the edge of fitting just-one-more-panel, like mine. Yep. 2/ I noticed that while GSE seems pretty common, I believe it has some limitations that I find a bit annoying It has fixed tray sizes so uncommon panels won't fit, or you will be using more space than you need It does not allow you to combine horizontal and vertical trays, at least they won't be nicely connected. Perhaps Renusol ISSE is more flexible but I cant seem to ind anyone selling them. Tradesparky does have _some_ renusol stuff but I think it's missing that ISSE stuff again.