self build.....where to start.....

[Amateur bob]

11 hours ago, ProDave said:

We are living in our unfinished new build.  Circumstances did not pan out as we planned so we are currently very slowly finishing the house as we live in it.

are you managing ok, what sort of things were left to do when you moved in?

[soapstar]

Just now, Amateur bob said:

£14,600??? i was told around £200 for pre aplication advice plus os map, £400 for planning application

 

10 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Nope just full pp. 

topo survey

flood risk survey

contaminated land survey

architect

planning consultant

ecology survey

landscape designers, photos

you can spend it real quick if you try. 

 

Same for us, little over 15k to get where we are now. Architect, planning consultant, ground surveys etc

 

To actually submit an application yes it would cost you a few hundred pounds, however to give yourself the best possible chance you need all bases covered to avoid going back and forth with the planners.  You can usually re-submit again for free within one year...I learnt this the hard way by finding this out 1 week after the year was up on our 2nd submission ?

 

I've said this before...talk to local councillors which are on your ward, they can be a great help to determine your chances and most importantly cost nothing...

[Amateur bob]

11 hours ago, redtop said:

we have had enough money to buy plot with pp, get all prof work done inc structural engineer, building regs, services to site and site cleared and foundations done.  Oh and buy sofa and bed! go figure lol. All that will be done by end of the summer and then its month by month pay as we go ?  In no rush though, renting a place round the corner so can take 3 years if needed but we will have a brand new house with no mortgage or debts so well happy. Fortunatly we have quite a bit of spare cash each month but reckon we will come in under 1000 per sq metre. I think once you get past foundations the next area where unexpected costs crop us is expensive kitchens, fixtures and fittings. More relaxed about doing it ourselves rather than getting a builder in and sweating they arnt doing a good job. And northern so tight

you will need more money though as you will have to pay it all yourself including vat before you claim it back(i understand getting a builder to do it solves vat issue?) what m2 is the house if you dont mind me asking as others are saying it costs double what you are saying?

[redtop]

dont forget when people say 2K per sq m that is a million miles away from a standard spec house of the same size.  If you want to build to min building regs with standard everything its miles cheaper.  Nearly everyone, myself included, is far exceeding building regs for U values, air tightness, quality of components, etc. So better kit = more money.  But then saving labour costs plus saving profit a building coy makes = saving money.  Only buying stuff for one house not 150 = more money per house. So its swings and roundabouts but like i said earlier i think its entirely possibkle to get a great quality house for 1k per sq metre provided you dont go overboard on fancy designs, designer kitchens and watch the money you spend on fancy pants eco stuff; particularly anything with the passive label which seems to get a premium price added to it. some of it makes sense but a lot seems to appeal to people who have more moeny than sense; aka many of the grand designs houses lol

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Amateur bob said:

this is the bit im struggling with £2000m2, just to build it when the plots already owned? id be cheaper buying a house than building it at that, and thats before you add plot value

 

Looking solely at the economics, I'd say that self-build is only cheaper than buying an existing house if you are prepared to do a fair bit of the work.

 

Small scale housebuilding is barely profitable for those with the skills and experience now, which is why so few small builders seem to build houses anymore.  Years ago it would be fairly common to find small local builders buying plots of land and doing speculative house builds, often as a way of staying in work when business was a bit slack.  They could then sell the house at a profit and go and buy another plot of land.  This doesn't seem to happen as much now, as the profit margin on house building has dropped.  It used to be that the "rule of thirds" could be applied, 1/3 for the land, 1/3 for the build cost and 1/3 profit.  Profit has dropped to between 10% and 15% for large house builders, and is probably even lower for smaller scale builds.

 

Take our build as an example.  I spent over three years working pretty much full time on it, yet it still cost almost as much to build as it was worth.  The build cost came to around £320k in total (including the land etc) and it was valued when complete at £340k.  If I'd employed trades to do all the work it would have probably cost more to build than the final value.  I doubt that's particular uncommon, as many people (like us) use self-build as a way to get a custom house that exactly fits their needs.

 

There's no doubt that those who are prepared to do a great deal of work themselves can self-build for less than the cost of buying an existing house.  It's also possible for those withg a bit of experience of self-build to save money by using their experience to avoid spending more than they need to. 

[Amateur bob]

2 minutes ago, redtop said:

dont forget when people say 2K per sq m that is a million miles away from a standard spec house of the same size.  If you want to build to min building regs with standard everything its miles cheaper.  Nearly everyone, myself included, is far exceeding building regs for U values, air tightness, quality of components, etc. So better kit = more money.  But then saving labour costs plus saving profit a building coy makes = saving money.  Only buying stuff for one house not 150 = more money per house. So its swings and roundabouts but like i said earlier i think its entirely possibkle to get a great quality house for 1k per sq metre provided you dont go overboard on fancy designs, designer kitchens and watch the money you spend on fancy pants eco stuff; particularly anything with the passive label which seems to get a premium price added to it. some of it makes sense but a lot seems to appeal to people who have more moeny than sense; aka many of the grand designs houses lol

this is whats confusing me as id like to do it as cheap as possible, watching building the dream last night and theres a guy built a 220m2 house for 220k and all hes done is assist the builders carrying a few blocks and some painting, but some reckon it would cost 440k to build the same house

[redtop]

1 minute ago, Amateur bob said:

you will need more money though as you will have to pay it all yourself including vat before you claim it back(i understand getting a builder to do it solves vat issue?) what m2 is the house if you dont mind me asking as others are saying it costs double what you are saying?

 

House is 162metre squared.  plot is a 1 1/2 acre wood, all with a TPO, VERY steep slope across the site and access road is just over 6ft wide. And pile foundations specified (with posts on top).  So straight away you get scary costs just for the foundations.  But working closly with the structural engineer, who visited the site, he has designed a system of 46 piles; loads.  But each is very small and the steels that will go on top will be small.  We have had one quote back for the foundations and its 9.7K plus VAT.  Electric was 900 quid for a temp supply, water will be 2K (ish). CLearing site, opening up turning head, removing a 3M high retaining wall and digging out area for double car port and turning head was 3k. Timber costs will be around £15K to £20K and we will hire a chippy to build the frame over the winter (or might do it myself) and erect next spring (we will provide a temp workshop, hire barn from local farmer). I have sparky mates, standard gas boiler, UFH downstairs only (and i have a plumber mate), flat green roof (we are getting the sedum seed and growing ourselves in trays on the site). Kitchen will be an ikea special. MVHR will be self installed. Be around 160K i reckon, and thats with specifying C24 47x150mm treated timber frame (stronger than the usual C16 CLS stuff). Oh, insulation will be between 10 and 15K, that could creep to 20k but they provide free training for fitting so will be doing that.

[SteamyTea]

15 hours ago, Amateur bob said:

im recently self employed and partner of business so dont have 3 years of accounts

By the time you are ready to start you will have 3 years worth of accounts, probably more.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Amateur bob said:

this is whats confusing me as id like to do it as cheap as possible, watching building the dream last night and theres a guy built a 220m2 house for 220k and all hes done is assist the builders carrying a few blocks and some painting, but some reckon it would cost 440k to build the same house

 

What you see on TV in the various self-build programmes is often a million miles away from reality!

 

These TV shows, rather like the self-build magazines, have a vested interest in making things look a lot cheaper than they are.  They exist to fuel the "self-build dream" and attract advertising from all the various companies trying to sell premium products to custom house buyers.

 

Sure people can build for £1,000/m², or less, if they put a lot of graft in, but I know of no one that has had what amounts to a turn-key house built for them for that sort of price.  Around here you'd be lucky to come in at under about £1,600/m² for a basic spec turn key self-build.

[lizzie]

23 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

this is the bit im struggling with £2000m2, just to build it when the plots already owned? id be cheaper buying a house than building it at that, and thats before you add plot value

I spent a lot more than £2000psqm ex plot.....our budget was £2000sqm ex plot

[redtop]

10 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Looking solely at the economics, I'd say that self-build is only cheaper than buying an existing house if you are prepared to do a fair bit of the work.

 

Small scale housebuilding is barely profitable for those with the skills and experience now, which is why so few small builders seem to build houses anymore.  Years ago it would be fairly common to find small local builders buying plots of land and doing speculative house builds, often as a way of staying in work when business was a bit slack.  They could then sell the house at a profit and go and buy another plot of land.  This doesn't seem to happen as much now, as the profit margin on house building has dropped.  It used to be that the "rule of thirds" could be applied, 1/3 for the land, 1/3 for the build cost and 1/3 profit.  Profit has dropped to between 10% and 15% for large house builders, and is probably even lower for smaller scale builds.

 

Take our build as an example.  I spent over three years working pretty much full time on it, yet it still cost almost as much to build as it was worth.  The build cost came to around £320k in total (including the land etc) and it was valued when complete at £340k.  If I'd employed trades to do all the work it would have probably cost more to build than the final value.  I doubt that's particular uncommon, as many people (like us) use self-build as a way to get a custom house that exactly fits their needs.

 

There's no doubt that those who are prepared to do a great deal of work themselves can self-build for less than the cost of buying an existing house.  It's also possible for those withg a bit of experience of self-build to save money by using their experience to avoid spending more than they need to. 

i would say you are ignoring something here though.  Buyers dont really care about EPC ratings, if they did house builders would do more to get better results. But it does matter if you are living in it.  Just building for profit its min spec all the way. Building for 'for ever' house is a different matter

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, redtop said:

i would say you are ignoring something here though.  Buyers dont really care about EPC ratings, if they did house builders would do more to get better results. But it does matter if you are living in it.  Just building for profit its min spec all the way. Building for 'for ever' house is a different matter

 

 

The added insulation and airtightness for our house barely made any difference at all to the finished cost, though.  I passed the spreadsheet of our costs to an architect who visited and he reckoned our basic build cost was slightly less than he'd expect for a house built to just meet building regs.  The key for us was using a build method that inherently gave good insulation and airtightness, and which was quick (so much lower labour costs).

[Amateur bob]

6 minutes ago, lizzie said:

I spent a lot more than £2000psqm ex plot.....our budget was £2000sqm ex plot

did you do much of the work yourself?

[redtop]

Just now, JSHarris said:

 

 

The added insulation and airtightness for our house barely made any difference at all to the finished cost, though.  I passed the spreadsheet of our costs to an architect who visited and he reckoned our basic build cost was slightly less than he'd expect for a house built to just meet building regs.  The key for us was using a build method that inherently gave good insulation and airtightness, and which was quick (so much lower labour costs).

that suprises me TBH, but then my architect massivly over estimates costs so i dont trust em to have more than a small digit grounded in reality lol.  He forecast 30K for double car port that has cost me 5K to buy the timber and put it up myself.  But then if you had gone min spec all the way, and dropped all the co stuff i bet you could have built for less and the end value would have been the same for re-sale.  I agree self-building to make money at the end is a very difficult task.

[Russell griffiths]

18 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

this is whats confusing me as id like to do it as cheap as possible, watching building the dream last night and theres a guy built a 220m2 house for 220k and all hes done is assist the builders carrying a few blocks and some painting, but some reckon it would cost 440k to build the same house

No you are missing the point

you can build for £1000 a metre but is this what you want, 

£2000 a metre gets you what you want. 

 

As as I said before that you are not answering 

what is this house for???

why do you want to build a house???

 

a couple of answers

to make a good profit and sell and move on

or it’s a home for my family to live in for 10-15 years

both answers will have implications on your build cost

 

you need to answer this first

i am hoping to come in at around £1000 per metre, but I’m one of only a few on here that will build it myself with no outside help, apart from electrical and a bit of plumbing 

 

there is is no point you spending £2000 per metre and selling at a loss, you need to look at why you are building 

if your family are giving you land you will make more profit by getting planning and selling to another self builder as plots are like gold dust. 

 

I could have built a nice family family home for £120,000 on my plot, but that would be stupid, the plot it sits on is worth many times that so it demands a good house of a certain spec, building a grand design thing on a corner plot in down town Beirut is stupid

 

you need to think why and for what before you go any further. 

[Jeremy Harris]

12 minutes ago, redtop said:

that suprises me TBH, but then my architect massivly over estimates costs so i dont trust em to have more than a small digit grounded in reality lol.  He forecast 30K for double car port that has cost me 5K to buy the timber and put it up myself.  But then if you had gone min spec all the way, and dropped all the co stuff i bet you could have built for less and the end value would have been the same for re-sale.  I agree self-building to make money at the end is a very difficult task.

 

 

Some basic costs of our 130m² build:

 

Foundation ground works (levelling, putting in services and laying compacted stone) = £2.8k

Foundations and fully insulated and airtight frame (air tested to PHI level included in the price) = £54k

3G windows and doors (PH standard, installed cost) = £8.5k

Roofing and guttering cost (excluding PV system) = £9.8k

External larch cladding cost = £9.4k

 

The basic cost of our completed, watertight, insulated shell came to about £84.5k, so about £650/m² (at 2013/14 prices).  I don't know how that compares to other build methods, but suspect it's not that much more expensive.  The insulation level in that £54k build was 300mm of EPS under the slab, 300mm of blown cellulose insulation in the walls and 400mm of blown cellulose in the roof.  The measured airtightness (included in the build contract cost) was 0.43 ACH at 50 Pa.

[Alex C]

46 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

this is the bit im struggling with £2000m2, just to build it when the plots already owned? id be cheaper buying a house than building it at that, and thats before you add plot value

Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Either you are a builder yourself or very skilled and motivated person who can do most the work including planning drawings and build something maybe for £1000m2 or you dont have a clue, pay someone to do everything for you and pay upwards from £2000m2. Most of us on here are somewhere in the middle region doing large chunks of work ourselves but also paying trades as and when. You don't seem willing to listen to the advice of a lot of very experienced self builders. Maybe self build isnt for you, it certainly isnt for everyone.

[Amateur bob]

6 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

No you are missing the point

you can build for £1000 a metre but is this what you want, 

£2000 a metre gets you what you want. 

 

As as I said before that you are not answering 

what is this house for???

why do you want to build a house???

 

a couple of answers

to make a good profit and sell and move on

or it’s a home for my family to live in for 10-15 years

both answers will have implications on your build cost

 

you need to answer this first

i am hoping to come in at around £1000 per metre, but I’m one of only a few on here that will build it myself with no outside help, apart from electrical and a bit of plumbing 

 

there is is no point you spending £2000 per metre and selling at a loss, you need to look at why you are building 

if your family are giving you land you will make more profit by getting planning and selling to another self builder as plots are like gold dust. 

 

I could have built a nice family family home for £120,000 on my plot, but that would be stupid, the plot it sits on is worth many times that so it demands a good house of a certain spec, building a grand design thing on a corner plot in down town Beirut is stupid

 

you need to think why and for what before you go any further. 

the plot is on a farm steading and i need it to live close by, it will never be sold as we dont want strangers about the place, im almost tempted for a bungalow now but am told its dearer per m2

[Amateur bob]

5 minutes ago, Alex C said:

Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Either you are a builder yourself or very skilled and motivated person who can do most the work including planning drawings and build something maybe for £1000m2 or you dont have a clue, pay someone to do everything for you and pay upwards from £2000m2. Most of us on here are somewhere in the middle region doing large chunks of work ourselves but also paying trades as and when. You don't seem willing to listen to the advice of a lot of very experienced self builders. Maybe self build isnt for you, it certainly isnt for everyone.

ok im listening to all information and advice, im still trying to get my head round the basic costs and may not even proceed if i decide its not for me

[Amateur bob]

11 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Some basic costs of our 130m² build:

 

Foundation ground works (levelling, putting in services and laying compacted stone) = £2.8k

Foundations and fully insulated and airtight frame (air tested to PHI level included in the price) = £54k

3G windows and doors (PH standard, installed cost) = £8.5k

Roofing and guttering cost (excluding PV system) = £9.8k

External larch cladding cost = £9.4k

 

The basic cost of our completed, watertight, insulated shell came to about £84.5k, so about £650/m² (at 2013/14 prices).  I don't know how that compares to other build methods, but suspect it's not that much more expensive.  The insulation level in that £54k build was 300mm of EPS under the slab, 300mm of blown cellulose insulation in the walls and 400mm of blown cellulose in the roof.  The measured airtightness (included in the build contract cost) was 0.43 ACH at 50 Pa.

very useful costings here, where can i find a rough full costing of building a house just to get a rough idea where all my money will be going?

[SteamyTea]

As the plot is already owned by a family member, it is not going anywhere, so no real hurry to build on it.

You could, for a laugh, find a suitable, and cheap house, and refurbish it.

Or you could wait and see if the value of property crashes and buy up a bargain, cash is king here.

Edited June 5, 2019 by SteamyTea

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

the plot is on a farm steading and i need it to live close by, it will never be sold as we dont want strangers about the place, im almost tempted for a bungalow now but am told its dearer per m2

 

 

Yes, bungalows tend to be more costly per m², as the roof costs per m² apply to every room, rather than the roof costs being split by the number of storeys.  It isn't a massive difference, though.  Taking our roof cost as an example, had our house been a bungalow of the same floor area then the roof cost would have been roughly double, but that would only have added about £70 to £80 per m².

[Russell griffiths]

Ok so now we are getting somewhere, so it’s a family farm and you need to stay local to run the farm. 

i will ask some more questions

 

how old are you?

are you married?

any kids?

 

How long till mum and dad croak?

 

 

my friend has just built on his dads farm, under some agricultural thing he got planning easy, but it had to stay under a certain size and also cost very little. 

I think it is about 100m and cost him about £120,000 to build. 

But this is why you need to answer the questions. 

He is 40 years old and single, his mum and dad are 70 years old, he plans to run the farm brother not interested,the plan is he will live in the small house for a few years until one of the parents croak, he will then move into the main farm house and the remaining parent will move into the small one, he will then find a wife as they will all come running when they see he’s a rich farmer with a big house. 

 

You need a plan, just because you have a bit of land doesn’t mean you need to build a house. why not put up a nice log cabin for £60,000

Edited June 5, 2019 by Russell griffiths

[Alex C]

17 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Some basic costs of our 130m² build:

 

Foundation ground works (levelling, putting in services and laying compacted stone) = £2.8k

Foundations and fully insulated and airtight frame (air tested to PHI level included in the price) = £54k

3G windows and doors (PH standard, installed cost) = £8.5k

Roofing and guttering cost (excluding PV system) = £9.8k

External larch cladding cost = £9.4k

 

The basic cost of our completed, watertight, insulated shell came to about £84.5k, so about £650/m² (at 2013/14 prices).  I don't know how that compares to other build methods, but suspect it's not that much more expensive.  The insulation level in that £54k build was 300mm of EPS under the slab, 300mm of blown cellulose insulation in the walls and 400mm of blown cellulose in the roof.  The measured airtightness (included in the build contract cost) was 0.43 ACH at 50 Pa.

There has been quite a significant jump in building prices since @JSHarris built his house not least because of the fall in the value of £ after the Brexit vote. You will need to work up from these prices not use them as a bare minimum.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Alex C said:

There has been quite a significant jump in building prices since @JSHarris built his house not least because of the fall in the value of £ after the Brexit vote. You will need to work up from these prices not use them as a bare minimum.

 

 

You're right, and worth noting that our build ended up costing about £1,380/m² at 2013/14 prices.