DIY ICF Construction - Bracing

[Alexphd1]

We used zonts and zogs with nudara icf, it worked very well and as we got use of them free it kept the cost down with no pressure on time. We spoke lightly on here about about a group buy but that fell through, I think it actually gave the guys a wee bit of bargaining power on the rental costs as they have another option for bracing. 

[Declan52]

23 minutes ago, Conor said:

Had actually considered that at the very start. May revert to that if it's more cost effective.

 

I'm confident in doing basic joinery, all the plumbing apart from boilers, kitchen fitting, bathrooms etc... Certainly ways I can save money.

Did you go to the self build show in Belfast and get a list of potential ICF companies. The next show isn't till September in Dublin if you didn't.

[Conor]

10 hours ago, Declan52 said:

Did you go to the self build show in Belfast and get a list of potential ICF companies. The next show isn't till September in Dublin if you didn't.

 

Yep. I've met with Johnny Balantine a couple times, Malachy Fox, John McClatchy and Patrick McKenna. Also spoke to another guy that used to work with Johnny Balantine but has started up on his own. I'm sure there are others but that's all I've found so far. Good impressions from all of them and will happily send them tender packs to price when the time comes. A single contract for getting a thermal shell completed by one of those guys is plan A. Plan B is groundworks contractor, then us doing ICF.... and I know a really good spark, carpenter and plumber. All fun and games.

[scottishjohn]

22 hours ago, Conor said:

That means 4 bedrooms. As it's a sloping site, we have a basement. Currently designed as part heated and part unheated. We've an obvious cost saving by having the whole level as unheated storage and utility space. Big saving on tanking and finishes, or forget about it entirely. But may be a false economy a we'll always have the structural costs regardless (rising walls would be 1.5m high at the back). Definitely more thinking to be done and another meeting with architect once planning comes through next month.

planning in most places will require tanking for a basement --so check that out

trying to  sort a damp basement later will cost many times more

a basement is somewhere to use as  the utility   area   -so freeing up living space --maybe that could cut down footprint and save money ?

not something I would  not skimp on at this stage 

skimping on getting out of ground is not a good idea --everything sits on that  

 post the plan up  would help  for people to give ideas, but if they already submitted you cannot change them easily 

 

 if plans is already submitted --then any changes will cost you money --so get them all at one time.

once plan is passed any changes will cause you headaches + money   to alter

 

[Conor]

2 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

planning in most places will require tanking for a basement --so check that out

trying to  sort a damp basement later will cost many times more

a basement is somewhere to use as  the utility   area   -so freeing up living space --maybe that could cut down footprint and save money ?

not something I would  not skimp on at this stage 

skimping on getting out of ground is not a good idea --everything sits on that  

 post the plan up  would help  for people to give ideas, but if they already submitted you cannot change them easily 

 

 if plans is already submitted --then any changes will cost you money --so get them all at one time.

once plan is passed any changes will cause you headaches + money   to alter

 

 

You're right. Definitely need the basement for at least utility and storage. Tanking is required for any heated space here, but not garage/storage etc. But I think we'd be mad not to make it fully insulated and compliant for living. We can save a load not by just leaving it bare min to pass regs and for it out at a later stage when finances allow.

 

We're still in planning, not started the building control drawings yet. I'm trying to get as a realistic picture of building costs and practicalities as possible before we pay the next £3k for drawings... Get it right first time to avoid rework. In my line of work, I'm acutely aware of this.

 

My drawings are in my post in "Introduce Yourself". But we've already decided on a raft of changes - full basement instead of partial (couple builders have said additional costs won't be that much compared to deep footings and rising walls) maintaining current ground level at the rear (rather digging down to have ground level at same as basement floor level), losing all the big retaining walls, stores, and garage. That's knocking off £90k alone.

[scottishjohn]

11 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

Definitely more thinking to be done and another meeting with architect once planning comes through next month.

I was going by what you were saying here 

If they not got the plans yet --it will be a miracle if you get full PP in next month 

here it would be 3 months MINIMUM after they got the plans !!

[Conor]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I was going by what you were saying here 

If they not got the plans yet --it will be a miracle if you get full PP in next month 

here it would be 3 months MINIMUM after they got the plans !!

Oh we've been in planning since last September! In a conservation area, have trees around us, river at the back linked to a protected hydrological site lol! But at the last stage now, awaiting sign off from senior planner. So hopefully FPP  in July, detailed drawings august, out for tender September, award and construction start in November.

 

What I meant was we've not started detailed building control / construction drawings. Our strategy was to apply for the biggest, boldest, most impactful design we'd consider building. Now at the point of reigning it back in, reducing balconies, glass, fancy claddings etc. Want these decided before we start paying engineers to spec foundations, steels etc. 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Going back to your original point regarding bracing, none off those diagrams included a hand rail, 

 

when my pump guy turned up he commented on how nice the working platform was, and he told me about 2 jobs recently 

1 he refused to pour as the platform was only 12 inches wide with no hand rail

the second the self builders wife had a serious fall from the platform which required hospital treatment. 

 

I was the the one who started the chat about getting a group together to buy the timber bracing

in the end I used the correct steel bracing with full hand rail and adjustable system and I’m glad I did. 

In all the bracing cost about £1400 and was money well spent. 

[Conor]

Jjjj@ragg987

 

@Russell griffiths

 

Totally agree re handrails. I'd be putting in a proper system. Had considered erecting scaffolding around the outside to use as the working platform. Or would that get in the way?

 

(Edit - how the hell do I delete that tag I put in by mistake?!)

Edited May 27, 2019 by Conor

[scottishjohn]

check out isotex --no bracing needed --for uk you won,t need rebar ,except round window=door openings-

you don,t have to use concrete flor if you don,t want--uk agent  https://insulhubuk.com/ 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Conor]

52 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

check out isotex --no bracing needed 

 

I had previously discounted Isotex and durisol for a few reasons, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

They are heavier and bulkier to get to site. As I'm in NI I assume his will be cost prohibitive as will require multiple HGV deliveries that will be over night trips plus ferry!!

 

Cement fibre is an open matrix and therefore is not inherently air tight - secondary air tightness measures required?

 

Re above... Additional tanking steps would be required as water proof concrete would not work.

 

Happy to be proven wrong! 

 

Have to say, does seem a fair bit easier and faster to put together than EPS blocks. And less mess from cutting.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Conor

[scottishjohn]

59 minutes ago, Conor said:

I had previously discounted Isotex and durisol for a few reasons, please correct me if I'm wrong:

 

They are heavier and bulkier to get to site. As I'm in NI I assume his will be cost prohibitive as will require multiple HGV deliveries that will be over night trips plus ferry!!

 

Cement fibre is an open matrix and therefore is not inherently air tight - secondary air tightness measures required?

 

Re above... Additional tanking steps would be required as water proof concrete would not work.

 

Happy to be proven wrong! 

 

Have to say, does seem a fair bit easier and faster to put together than EPS blocks. And less mess from cutting.

first of all -the airtightness thing is  something poly men say -easy sorted - you still have an exterior house wrap, if you are cladding  on any type and an interior VCL on all 

if you really worried you can parge coat --very thin sand =cement to fill up surface -

-but then maybe you want to render direct on to it

or fit bricks slips to it .which you can 

maybe you want to hard plaster inside -which will be your air barrier ,and bury electrics in wall--i prefer idea of batons and service void and PB+skim

transport cost --ask the supplier

straight way you just saved £1800 ? of bracing costs ,

 no need for water proof concrete

durisol is not as dimensionally correct as isotex --and has more linking webs ,but still a good product

you could, if you can buy cement and gravel mix  cheaper than ready mixed, -do it a bit at a time ,and not use a pump at all --thats £500 a day?

no one  builds poly ICF systems up to 10 storeys as some of the woodcrete do .

I,m not am isotex salesman -- ,just i have been studying all the dif systems now for a year while trying to get a plot 

and being an old fart I like the idea i can build it a bit at a time ..

all i,m really saying is do some more homework  -all the systems will work ,but whats suits me may not suit you .

?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by scottishjohn

[jamiehamy]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

check out isotex --no bracing needed 

 

'no bracing needed' - because UK self builders are able to summon a flat calm for the duration of construction.

 

Tbh, if they are claim that, its utterly irresponsible in various ways. If they make that claim, they can claim anything. There's nothing to lock those blocks in places - wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. 

[scottishjohn]

7 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

'no bracing needed' - because UK self builders are able to summon a flat calm for the duration of construction.

 

Tbh, if they are claim that, its utterly irresponsible in various ways. If they make that claim, they can claim anything. There's nothing to lock those blocks in places - wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. 

that,s your choice 

---been used for 40 years --so its obviously not a problem .

what locks them in place --its called gravity 

and if it really worried you --then just use a bit of "thin joint mortar  or low expansion foam on each one ?

and if you really want belt and braces only go 5 rows and then fill --its never going to be a problem is it ?

If we going to be silly a wayward teenager could set fire to your poly blocks ??,or one with an electric battery powered carving knife 

woodcrete  does not burn ,so another advantage should your house catch fire 

 

 

[jamiehamy]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

that,s your choice 

---been used for 40 years --so its obviously not a problem .

what locks them in place --its called gravity 

and if it really worried you --then just use a bit of "thin joint mortar  or low expansion foam on each one ?

and if you really want belt and braces only go 5 rows and then fill --its never going to be a problem is it ?

If we going to be silly a wayward teenager could set fire to your poly blocks ??,or one with an electric battery powered carving knife 

woodcrete  does not burn ,so another advantage should your house catch fire 

 

 

No bracing is 'obviously' not a problem? Sorry, but not only on the theoretical side, we have a builder here who has proven it. I wonder then what wind or force the unbraced unpoured icf can withstand? Its an important point and worth discussing. They appear not even to have a click lock or locking mould which adds to my concern over this particular product. Never mind gravity it looks like you could gently push the whole lot down. 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, jamiehamy said:

No bracing is 'obviously' not a problem? Sorry, but not only on the theoretical side, we have a builder here who has proven it. I wonder then what wind or force the They appear not even to have a click lock or locking mould which adds to my concern over this particular product. Never mind gravity it looks like you could gently push the whole lot down. 

 

and he will be the first to say he built it too high ,

 opinion and connjecture is all you have to support your argument 

40 years +of use is what i will take as my proof it works.

 common sense ,something which you seem to ignoring ,would tell you that professional builders ,who are well used to the system would not be doing it without bracing if it was a very likely scenario .,and all over europe .where as every poly system maker take great pains to make you aware that bracing is mandatory ,what ever the weather 

it was durisol ,not isotex that fell down 

suffice it to say he had quality issues with his blocks as well , add excess height and odd size blocks ,theres the reason 

 

"unbraced unpoured icf can withstand? Its an important point and worth discussing".

no, the makers have already worked all that out  and state maximum recommended height at which you pour the wall.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by scottishjohn

[jamiehamy]

10 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

 

and he will be the first to say he built it too high ,

 opinion and connjecture is all you have to support your argument 

40 years +of use is what i will take as my proof it works.

 common sense ,something which you seem to ignoring ,would tell you that professional builders ,who are well used to the system would not be doing it without bracing if it was a very likely scenario .,and all over europe .where as every poly system maker take great pains to make you aware that bracing is mandatory ,what ever the weather 

it was durisol ,not isotex that fell down 

suffice it to say he had quality issues with his blocks as well , add excess height and odd size blocks ,theres the reason 

 

"unbraced unpoured icf can withstand? Its an important point and worth discussing".

no, the makers have already worked all that out  and state maximum recommended height at which you pour the wall.

 

 

 

So what wind speed can it withstand unpoured? 

[Alexphd1]

John, are you sure you are not a salesman for this isotex stuff?? For a guy who has never used it before you do fight its corner pretty strong! 

 

As for the comment nobody builds 10 story in poly icf, hold my beer .... https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-040-high-rise-igloos ??

 

Pouring any concrete wall to be used as a basement why wouldn't you use waterproof concrete as well as external tanking??

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Alexphd1

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, Alexphd1 said:

John, are you sure you are not a salesman for this isotex stuff?? For a guy who has never used it before you do fight its corner pretty strong! 

 

As for the comment nobody builds 10 story in poly icf, hold my beer .... https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-040-high-rise-igloos ??

 

Pouring any concrete wall to be used as a basement why wouldn't you use waterproof concrete as well as external tanking??

 

 

 

 

LOL.

yes i,m sure i,m not an Isotex salesman ,although expect some discount ,if i ever get this plot.LOL

 I like your canadian IGLOOS -- 

I stand corrected they build  hi -rise-- but they will still use lots of bracing ,

which is not used in Isotex  or velox  and  durisol builds  in europe ,australia ,russia .

It would appear in far off places, woodcrete is more popular than poly --think its because the poorer people can build it a bit at a time ,mix the concrete by  hand  and fill  the blocks

I wonder if in uk it is cheaper to hand mix ? maybe not.

seems the mix is not as critical for  woodcrete and it drys out quicker cos the water content seeps into the woodcrete drying it out  quicker and allowing concrete to firm up  quicker and reduce the time the standing hydraulic pressure is a problem ,which is definitely the enemy of poly systems  causing most blow outs I am guessing 

 

30 years younger  and if it was cheaper to hand mix and no need for expensive pump --I would be looking hard   at doing it that way .

home from work and do 2 or 3mixs in an evening,soon be done ,

 hunt the net +u-tube ,its all there to see

 

I agree  with the wp concrete for basement --but if BC insist on tanking as well ?

is that a bit of overkill ?

they use external stick on tanking membranes on sips paneled basements in the states

not that i like the idea of sips walled basement ,but it must be water proof 

 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, jamiehamy said:

So what wind speed can it withstand unpoured?

I have no definitive data

but if you are using an insulated block  380mm or 440 mm in width  that is going to take some wind force to blow it over,never going to happen at sensible dry block stacking heights

even the thin one at 330mm --thats still over a foot wide

[Alexphd1]

There was a guy on this forums predecessor who was based on some if the islands in the hebrides. He mixed a icf build by hand I seam to remember he wouldn't do it again. 

 

A quick back of fag packet calculation I need approx 25m3 of concrete for my basement walls...... shite with mixing that by hand!! 

 

For the little extra cash I will be using waterproof concrete (with all water bars etc), external tanking and good drainage on a 3 sided basement. As you say it's a major to sort out later!

Edited May 28, 2019 by Alexphd1

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, Alexphd1 said:

There was a guy on this forums predecessor who was based on some if the islands in the hebrides. He mixed a icf build by hand I seam to remember he wouldn't do it again. 

LOL

most will probably say that about any self build .

but if money is the problem and you could do it with no mortgage and were strong in the back  and weak in the head ,LOL

then that could save alot and spread  the coast out over time .I remember my dad built in a double walled brick garage that way around the old wooden one when i was a boy 

no ready mix in those days ,or even a mixer!!no money for that--so it just happened over a couple of years --it was 40ft by 20ft 

so me and brother were labours on a sunday morning

and we had to make bigger founds outside the old one and built up nearly 2ft at one end

[Alexphd1]

Tbh if I was hand mixing I think I would ditch icf in general and go with concrete block with EWI. 

[jack]

15 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

Tbh if I was hand mixing I think I would ditch icf in general and go with concrete block with EWI. 

 

Indeed. Isn't there are an issue with joins between fresh and cured concrete in ICF (as in you need to make provision for joins between pours done more than a day or so apart apart)? 

[jamiehamy]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

I have no definitive data

but if you are using an insulated block  380mm or 440 mm in width  that is going to take some wind force to blow it over,never going to happen at sensible dry block stacking heights

even the thin one at 330mm --thats still over a foot wide

Okay, clearly we're not going to agree on this or come close. 

 

For any icf'ers reading this thread I would suggest being very wary of building icf without bracing even if it's suggested. There are multiple reasons for this, from basic Health and Safety to implications for the subsequent concrete pours. Maybe 4 courses might with stand a strong wind but then you have two concrete pours not one. And how one keeps the walls plumb is beyond me - they are lightweight and have in many cases no inherent stiffness. And once you add in tons of concrete it's all magically to stay absolutely vertical? Each to their own of course.