Polar Energi Hot water ASHP/Tank

[Patrick]

I was just lloking into the different systems available for heating/Hot water. Some Great systems are used by the members on here and I am tempted to use a Genvex Combi like @PeterStarck as it seems amazing logical to combine it all with the MVHR. However, i just found this :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyQRTg7Gpw8

It seems an  incredible good system, even though not including the MVHR , but still a very good, space saving method which seems easy to use/install.

Website is in Norge https://www.polarenergi.com so anybody wanting a look might need to look at their NZ distributor as I couldn t find UK or even US website

http://polarenergi.co.nz

 

Anybody on here ever looked into this? Is it a good system, or not really worth the trouble ordering from Norway as similar exists in the uk(which ones>?  )

 

 

[scottishjohn]

I watched the video  you linked 

looks like a mitsubishi  eco dan with pre-plumbed hot water tank+controller --which does just the same as that system an only has 2 units as that does 

I have one and very happy with it 

[Patrick]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I watched the video  you linked 

looks like a mitsubishi  eco dan with pre-plumbed hot water tank+controller --which does just the same as that system an only has 2 units as that does 

I have one and very happy with it 

Cool. Will , have a look at this.

It might as well be that they not available over here because there is something already  - like your Mitsubishio Eco dan

[Jeremy Harris]

Looks to be just a direct ASHP to me, with the refrigerant circulating around the tank coil.  Bit of a pig to install, as it will need silver soldered pipe joints to the coils and also need to be installed by someone with an F gas ticket, as the primary will have to be pressure and leak tested, put under vacuum and then gassed up.

 

There are lots of other systems around that use a direct refrigerant coil in the tank, but most of the common ones use air from the house to supply the heat pump, and they aren't always that easy to fit to a well-sealed house with MVHR (can be done, but they tend to imbalance the MVHR when running).  Most of the units I've seen are Chinese, where they seem to be very popular, judging by the number of them for sale on Alibaba.

 

The Mitsubishi Ecodan is an air to water heat pump, not a direct unit like this.

[Patrick]

12 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Looks to be just a direct ASHP to me, with the refrigerant circulating around the tank coil.  Bit of a pig to install, as it will need silver soldered pipe joints to the coils and also need to be installed by someone with an F gas ticket, as the primary will have to be pressure and leak tested, put under vacuum and then gassed up. 

 

There are lots of other systems around that use a direct refrigerant coil in the tank, but most of the common ones use air from the house to supply the heat pump, and they aren't always that easy to fit to a well-sealed house with MVHR

Wouldnt want to fit an Internal ASHP , doesnt make much sense to me in a well insulated house.

Have you seen any other direct ASHP in the UK ?

Or is the system just so impractical -apart from the F-Gas service enginner needed to install it- that nobody uses it.

[Gone West]

41 minutes ago, Patrick said:

I was just lloking into the different systems available for heating/Hot water. Some Great systems are used by the members on here and I am tempted to use a Genvex Combi like @PeterStarck as it seems amazing logical to combine it all with the MVHR.

The Genvex Combi 185LS we have uses a small, 585W, EASHP. This heats the water and provides supplementary air heating through the MVHR system. This means the air being supplied to the living rooms is never below room temperature, so never feels cold. This system works well for us because we have a small house which is very airtight and has very well insulated walls, roof and floor with U factors < 0.1W/m2K. This means we don't need UFH. I ran many iterations of the PHPP to find what levels of insulation and airtightness were required for our house to use the Genvex Combi 185LS. It wouldn't work as the sole form of heating and DHW in a larger house or house with higher U factors.

[Jeremy Harris]

19 minutes ago, Patrick said:

Wouldnt want to fit an Internal ASHP , doesnt make much sense to me in a well insulated house.

Have you seen any other direct ASHP in the UK ?

Or is the system just so impractical -apart from the F-Gas service enginner needed to install it- that nobody uses it.

 

There's the Magic Box, although I'm not sure that it's still available, plus all the variants on the Portuguese/Spanish flat plate collector direct ASHPs.

 

They all work OK, and tend to be able to provide a higher water temperature than an indirect air-to-water system, but there are other options for getting really hot water from a heat pump, too.  Daikin make a hybrid ASHP with a small gas boiler that works well, for example.  The gas consumption is pretty low, as the bulk of the heating is done by the ASHP pre-heater, with the gas heater only giving a lift to the warmed water to get it up to around 55 to 60°C.  This means they can run on LPG reasonably cheaply.

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Looks to be just a direct ASHP to me, with the refrigerant circulating around the tank coil.  Bit of a pig to install, as it will need silver soldered pipe joints to the coils and also need to be installed by someone with an F gas ticket, as the primary will have to be pressure and leak tested, put under vacuum and then gassed up.

 

There are lots of other systems around that use a direct refrigerant coil in the tank, but most of the common ones use air from the house to supply the heat pump, and they aren't always that easy to fit to a well-sealed house with MVHR (can be done, but they tend to imbalance the MVHR when running).  Most of the units I've seen are Chinese, where they seem to be very popular, judging by the number of them for sale on Alibaba.

 

The Mitsubishi Ecodan is an air to water heat pump, not a direct unit like this.

the polar system he linked with video does not do MVHR --only ufh +dhw

which is why i suggested eco dan 

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

the polar system he linked with video does not do MVHR --only ufh +dhw

which is why i suggested eco dan 

 

The Ecodan range from Mitsubishi have nothing to do with MVHR, they are simply air-to-water heat pumps.

[scottishjohn]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

The Ecodan range from Mitsubishi have nothing to do with MVHR, they are simply air-to-water heat pumps.

correct and that is what the polar video showed  video showed  ufh +dhw --no mvhr 

he was confusing the polar system with the genvex system 

i watched it twice and nothing about mvhr 

Edited April 8, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, scottishjohn said:

correct and that is what the polar video showed  video showed  ufh +dhw --no mvhr 

he was confusing the polar system with the genvex system 

 

No, the Polar unit is not an air-to-water heat pump.  It is a direct unit, with refrigerant gas flowing through the tank coil, rather than water.  This increases the available temperature over a normal air-to-water heat pump a fair bit, for the reasons explained in that video.

 

The Mitsubishi Ecodan is a standard air-to-water heat pump, that circulates heated water through a tank coil, or UFH, so a different operating principle.

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

 

No, the Polar unit is not an air-to-water heat pump.  It is a direct unit, with refrigerant gas flowing through the tank coil, rather than water.  This increases the available temperature over a normal air-to-water heat pump a fair bit, for the reasons explained in that video.

 

The Mitsubishi Ecodan is a standard air-to-water heat pump, that circulates heated water through a tank coil, or UFH, so a different operating principle.

and?  just a different way to do same job.

+ he can,t find a uk supplier for the polar and asked for  compact alternatives --but still no mvhr like genex

so thats why I posted what i did 

his choice --dont, think he wants to get into the tecchie bits -just looking for a  compact system

no need to make this into a big deal 

 

[ProDave]

Okay I can see how this system achieves a higher temperature than an air to water heat pump. BUT I cannot see the claim it can achieve the same COP in winter as in summer?  What about defrosting?

 

As regards different way to do the same job. Well yes it is, but with the big drawback of needing more complex and robust plumbing and an F gas engineer to pipe it, check it and then charge it with gas.

 

It would be interesting to see a proper comparison,  The extra eficciency and energy saving Vs the cost of the install and gassing, and see what the payback time of the extra expense really is.

[Patrick]

27 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

and?  just a different way to do same job.

+ he can,t find a uk supplier for the polar and asked for  compact alternatives --but still no mvhr like genex

so thats why I posted what i did 

his choice --dont, think he wants to get into the tecchie bits -just looking for a  compact system

no need to make this into a big deal 

 

I didnt want a MVHR included. I just mentioned something like the  Genvex Combi as I think it is a brilliant all-in-one solution, even though missing the UFH-element. So a mix between something like the Polar Unit with a Genvex , where all is in 1 Unit as a Plug and Play option would be amazing. But I think it either doesnt exist or is over the top expensive.

Regarding the original topic, it probably  is worded a little confusing.

 

@JSHarris I was looking at the Polar Unit for exact that reason- direct connection to the ASHP . Sometimes i struggle to describe what i am looking for. Terminology still is a bit confusing from time to time.

 

So was thinking if its worth it or if it brings any benefits.

So far i read:

- hotter water temp. possible within the system without  the need of a sepearte system.

 

@ProDave

Very well put. Exactly this is what I should have asked to start with . ?

Edited April 8, 2019 by Patrick

[ProDave]

Just to add, you don't need water at 80 degrees.  Our hot water is heated to 48 degrees, that being hotter than I can hold my hand under for any length of time. I see no reason for needing it hotter than that.

[Patrick]

@ProDaveTrue. It would be enough to have 48degrees. A good working system for a decent amount of money is what I'm after. Efficiency is a bonus.