Logix ICF: Build anything slower!

[willbish]

 

I thought it would be the benefit of the buildhub clan to let you know about my (ongoing) experiences with Logix ICF.

 

I will keep the details of this post a statement of fact. Logix management is aware that I'm going to post. If they decide to respond on this forum please everyone watch out for BS!

 

On 27th Nov I made my order with Logix, confirming with BACS deposit to tune of £4.5k.

 

The stated lead time on the quotation is 4-6weeks. 

As Christmas fell just before the 4 week mark I expected delivery would be not be until new year. Fine with me, more time for mince pies and cheer.

 

On the 28th Dec, I was informed by email due to 'reorganisation, moving of equipment etc' delivery would be delayed until beginning/middle of Feb.

 

Oh well bang goes January, so I drag the family to Cape Verde for some winter sun.

 

Fri 25th Jan I start hearing some worrying information through the buildhub grapevine that LogixUK are not in a good place financially. Administration is mentioned.

 

Im immediately set into a mild state of panic and although I cannot reach the management by telephone I do receive an email reassuring me that my order is safe.

 

Several days pass and I am able to get some information from the horse's mouth.

-Logix manufacturing equipment has not been sold

-Manufacturing equipment for Logix not currently operating. Not certain of the reason so I shall not speculate.

-Manufacturing scheduled to restart week commencing 25th Feb

It was established that there are many other people awaiting delivery of their Logix blocks but I was near the top of the queue.

Discount was discussed but no figure agreed. I argued that discount should be arranged now for the current delay and then if there were to be any further delays we could revisit the discount and adjust. This was not accepted.

 

So bang goes another month. This time I'm mad and I'm wondering if I'm being led along. But I try my best to execute some zen like patience!

 

I also tweet the new Vice President for Marketing of Logix based in Canada and hear naff all. Andy Lennox 

 

27/02 I visit Logix office unannounced and find everything closed and post piling up on the door mat.

On the phone to management, I'm told manufacturing not yet started, but it is imminent and delivery to be expected early next week. Also told that the blocks will be made in Arundel in Sussex.

 

An easy bit of detective work and I'm on the phone with Styropak who confirm they will manufacturing the blocks in their factory. They tell me that the first trial blocks have yet to come off the production line. 

I assume delivery will not be 'early next week' after all. 

 

I'm getting used to the lies now.

 

The first week of March comes and goes. Unsurprisingly no ICF blocks arrive, but more irritating is no explanation or apology from management as to why the 'early next week' delivery did not materialise.

 

I am informed through a Buildhub member that a Logix customer has been having issues with the quality of blocks received. I speak to this guy and he tells me that many blocks have the inner leaf shorter than the outer leaf. It has affected his build considerably. So much so that he is switching to Nudura to complete the rest of the build.

 

11/03 find out by calling Styropak that some manufacturing was started on 08/03. I've found the quality of information to be much more accurate when speaking to Styropak directly.

 

I now have a delivery date scheduled for 20th March, I did push this back by two days to suit my own work commitments. The delivery will not include the bracing props, that is scheduled for 3rd April along with the first floor ICF.

 

So there we have it. If all goes to plan I will have waited 18 weeks for enough ICF blocks to build a moderately sized semi-detached cottage.

 

If other builders are currently deciding which ICF manufacturer to use I would recommend proceeding with caution. It's unlikely that anyone else would have to endure similar delays now that the manufacturing equipment is set up in Arandel. 

However the fact that management has allowed this to happen speaks volumes. Nudura for instance will import product from North America, delivery 4 weeks!

 

I have contacted Logix head office in the States to make them aware of what is going on in the UK and twice been told that someone will call me back. I can only assume their customer service is just as effective as here in the UK.

[Declan52]

Not a good start to your build.  Have you been able to find out if the quality of blocks they are producing has improved. 

You have waited all this time and like most things if they are rushing to produce these blocks  to fulfil orders then quality is what usually slips.  

Have they give you any guarantee what will be delivered as in it will be  X amount of blocks.  Just asking in case they are  spreading what they have around just to get people started but no one has enough to really get going. 

[scottishjohn]

check them very carefully --and if not the right thing then maybe time to go legal 

"merchantable quality " is the tack i would take if you do go that way  

start with   citizens advice +trading standards etc -they are free

that should make them wake up and get you refunded -or financially compensated if worst case scenario

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, willbish said:

[...]

So there we have it. If all goes to plan I will have waited 18 weeks for enough ICF blocks to build a moderately sized semi-detached cottage.

[...]

 

18 weeks eh? Only 18 weeks.

DURISOL, ordered November 2016, delivered end of April 2017. 

Just sayin' .....

 

Oh, and by the way, if you now break / lose / otherwise mislay / under order / have a meat head on the team who couldn't give a toss and so breaks a few / you'll have a similar wait.

I learned to use the enforced wait to plan: wish I'd done more.

[willbish]

8 hours ago, Declan52 said:

Have you been able to find out if the quality of blocks they are producing has improved. 

No idea. Just hoping that new manufacturing location has high quality control standards.

 

8 hours ago, Declan52 said:

Have they give you any guarantee what will be delivered as in it will be  X amount of blocks.  Just asking in case they are  spreading what they have around just to get people started but no one has enough to really get going. 

Have been told full order split over two deliveries, two weeks apart. First load will be a rigid lorry which I think should have a 14 pallet capacity

 

1 hour ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

18 weeks eh? Only 18 weeks.

DURISOL, ordered November 2016, delivered end of April 2017. 

Just sayin' .....

 

My durisol quote from Nov 17 doesn't even mention a lead time. What was their excuse for taking so long? Or is 5 months a standard time for durisol?!

 

Maybe it's from my line of work, but if I offer a customer 4-6week lead time I do my utmost to make it happen. And if I couldn't deliver within the stated timeframe I wouldn't accept the order without first highlighting the expected delays.

Common decency? Or niave business practice

[ToughButterCup]

39 minutes ago, willbish said:

[...]

My durisol quote from Nov 17 doesn't even mention a lead time. What was their excuse for taking so long? Or is 5 months a standard time for durisol?!

[...]

 

I cannot remember the excuse. The reason was the normal one. Insufficient production capacity. Spun as ' ... a success - related problem ...' 

 

[willbish]

@recoveringacademic your delivery record stands but I'm still getting closer to the 5 month mark with no delivery this week.

 

The scheduled date of Weds 20th was abruptly cancelled on Tues afternoon.

'we have most of your product but the thicker panels aren't ready'

 

Rescheduled for Fri 22nd....

On Thurs afternoon I check in to see if all is in order. 'Yes yes lorry will be with you between 2-4pm'

Almost sounds promising doesn't it?!

 

Friday afternoon comes and I receive a call.

'Sorry there's been a mix up, we haven't dispatched your product today. 

 

I ask the genuine question, do you enjoy lying to people or are you just incompetent?

 

So it continues....

[ToughButterCup]

You must be really hacked off. 

In that phase of our build, I got quite adept at re-scheduling and re-planning stuff. Delay can be turned into a positive thing ... takes effort, but it can be done.

 

[scottishjohn]

maybe this should be  a word of caution to all and to send the supplier a letter which states that if delivery more than 4 weeks late it  will viewed as a breach of contract and you require a full refund .

they will be the ones stating the delivery time not you and it is not unreasonable for them to get it right within  4weeks of due date

 If they have a problem with that then change you choice of blocks 

it is up to them to give you a realistic delivery time when they want some money .

if they want up front payment there is no trust involved in the deal --,so it should be a simple contract  issue 

quite sure they are some legal eagles out there who have seen such supply contracts in the past 

Edited March 23, 2019 by scottishjohn

[willbish]

@recoveringacademic

The following stages of the build will be much more organised due to the delay. There is a positive in every. That is about the only positive i can draw from this delay.

 

@scottishjohn

Ive been in touch with Citizens advice a while back and I think consumer protection is pretty poor even these kind of scenarios. I have only paid a deposit ~20%. As far as Im aware, there is no liability on the supplier for any consequential losses owing to a delay in delivering the goods.

At any point the supplier can cancel the order, return the deposit and walk away without any penalty.

 

In this instance I have been promised on several occasions that the product will be delivered in 4-6weeks time. From what I can see most other suppliers are also quoting 4-6 week lead time. So each time I was told it would be another month I thought it was still in my interest to keep my order instead of cancelling and going elsewhere. I would've liked to have walked away but there hasn't been an obvious point over the last 17 weeks when I thought that was the best option for securing ICF sooner.

 

 

[scottishjohn]

12 hours ago, willbish said:

@recoveringacademic

The following stages of the build will be much more organised due to the delay. There is a positive in every. That is about the only positive i can draw from this delay.

 

@scottishjohn

Ive been in touch with Citizens advice a while back and I think consumer protection is pretty poor even these kind of scenarios. I have only paid a deposit ~20%. As far as Im aware, there is no liability on the supplier for any consequential losses owing to a delay in delivering the goods.

At any point the supplier can cancel the order, return the deposit and walk away without any penalty.

 

In this instance I have been promised on several occasions that the product will be delivered in 4-6weeks time. From what I can see most other suppliers are also quoting 4-6 week lead time. So each time I was told it would be another month I thought it was still in my interest to keep my order instead of cancelling and going elsewhere. I would've liked to have walked away but there hasn't been an obvious point over the last 17 weeks when I thought that was the best option for securing ICF sooner.

 

 

no you have to make this statement at the beginning of the purchase process in writing and if there is an order from write it on it as a condition of sale  then it will be considered as  a valid reason for cancelling if they do not keep to delivery schedule.

too late to try to enforce after you have made the deal  with no such caveat in original order process .

they can walk away cos they have included that as part of the terms of sale --so you put your own ones on --all part of contract law

Edited March 24, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Conor]

@willbish any update on your situation with Logix? One of the builders I'm considering going with on my project uses Logix so keen to hear more.

[willbish]

Hi @Conor

 

Blocks showed up last Tues, have been making good progress since then, I've been surprised how much I can get done when I have a couple of free hours between shifts. But there is a lot lost time to catch up on!

 

I appreciated the courtesy call from Logix management a couple of days after delivery to check everything was in order. Likewise with the site visit. I had muttered that management would not be welcome on site after the antics of the last 17 weeks but in truth I appreciated some expert eyes and tips.

 

Some photos of the progress so far

 

If you are considering using the thicker blocks than the standard I would look into the costings of using standard blocks and then adding additional EPS to the outside face, much like EWI.

I think this could be quicker, as it is a awkward cutting blocks that are 431mm deep.

[Conor]

Thanks Will, very happy things are working out now!

 

Yes, I'd considered buying standard ICF blocks and adding on an additional 100mm EPS. Not sure how I'd go about it tho, what adhesive would you use? Those blocks look quite a handful to work with. 

[Bitpipe]

14 minutes ago, Conor said:

Thanks Will, very happy things are working out now!

 

Yes, I'd considered buying standard ICF blocks and adding on an additional 100mm EPS. Not sure how I'd go about it tho, what adhesive would you use? Those blocks look quite a handful to work with. 

 

Low Expansion foam (gun grade) is a pretty easy way of sticking EPS to anything - I used it to clad the exterior of the basement which was about about 120m2..  

[Conor]

12 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Low Expansion foam (gun grade) is a pretty easy way of sticking EPS to anything - I used it to clad the exterior of the basement which was about about 120m2..  

 

Cheers! That's what I had initially thought. But struggled to find anything firm online from manufacturers recommending/ approving this. I have priced this method and for our build EPS comes in about £3k where as "passive" ICF is an additional £9k over standard. Clear winner.

[K78]

4 hours ago, Conor said:

 

Cheers! That's what I had initially thought. But struggled to find anything firm online from manufacturers recommending/ approving this. I have priced this method and for our build EPS comes in about £3k where as "passive" ICF is an additional £9k over standard. Clear winner.

 

That is the problem. EWI should be a simple diy job. But they won’t approve a common sense approach. 

 

If they did they would not be able to sell their extortionate courses, fixings, mesh/render systems etc. It’s a huge con. 

[Andy H]

On 12/03/2019 at 08:01, willbish said:

 

I thought it would be the benefit of the buildhub clan to let you know about my (ongoing) experiences with Logix ICF.

 

I will keep the details of this post a statement of fact. Logix management is aware that I'm going to post. If they decide to respond on this forum please everyone watch out for BS!

 

On 27th Nov I made my order with Logix, confirming with BACS deposit to tune of £4.5k.

 

The stated lead time on the quotation is 4-6weeks. 

As Christmas fell just before the 4 week mark I expected delivery would be not be until new year. Fine with me, more time for mince pies and cheer.

 

On the 28th Dec, I was informed by email due to 'reorganisation, moving of equipment etc' delivery would be delayed until beginning/middle of Feb.

 

Oh well bang goes January, so I drag the family to Cape Verde for some winter sun.

 

Fri 25th Jan I start hearing some worrying information through the buildhub grapevine that LogixUK are not in a good place financially. Administration is mentioned.

 

Im immediately set into a mild state of panic and although I cannot reach the management by telephone I do receive an email reassuring me that my order is safe.

 

Several days pass and I am able to get some information from the horse's mouth.

-Logix manufacturing equipment has not been sold

-Manufacturing equipment for Logix not currently operating. Not certain of the reason so I shall not speculate.

-Manufacturing scheduled to restart week commencing 25th Feb

It was established that there are many other people awaiting delivery of their Logix blocks but I was near the top of the queue.

Discount was discussed but no figure agreed. I argued that discount should be arranged now for the current delay and then if there were to be any further delays we could revisit the discount and adjust. This was not accepted.

 

So bang goes another month. This time I'm mad and I'm wondering if I'm being led along. But I try my best to execute some zen like patience!

 

I also tweet the new Vice President for Marketing of Logix based in Canada and hear naff all. Andy Lennox 

 

27/02 I visit Logix office unannounced and find everything closed and post piling up on the door mat.

On the phone to management, I'm told manufacturing not yet started, but it is imminent and delivery to be expected early next week. Also told that the blocks will be made in Arundel in Sussex.

 

An easy bit of detective work and I'm on the phone with Styropak who confirm they will manufacturing the blocks in their factory. They tell me that the first trial blocks have yet to come off the production line. 

I assume delivery will not be 'early next week' after all. 

 

I'm getting used to the lies now.

 

The first week of March comes and goes. Unsurprisingly no ICF blocks arrive, but more irritating is no explanation or apology from management as to why the 'early next week' delivery did not materialise.

 

I am informed through a Buildhub member that a Logix customer has been having issues with the quality of blocks received. I speak to this guy and he tells me that many blocks have the inner leaf shorter than the outer leaf. It has affected his build considerably. So much so that he is switching to Nudura to complete the rest of the build.

 

11/03 find out by calling Styropak that some manufacturing was started on 08/03. I've found the quality of information to be much more accurate when speaking to Styropak directly.

 

I now have a delivery date scheduled for 20th March, I did push this back by two days to suit my own work commitments. The delivery will not include the bracing props, that is scheduled for 3rd April along with the first floor ICF.

 

So there we have it. If all goes to plan I will have waited 18 weeks for enough ICF blocks to build a moderately sized semi-detached cottage.

 

If other builders are currently deciding which ICF manufacturer to use I would recommend proceeding with caution. It's unlikely that anyone else would have to endure similar delays now that the manufacturing equipment is set up in Arandel. 

However the fact that management has allowed this to happen speaks volumes. Nudura for instance will import product from North America, delivery 4 weeks!

 

I have contacted Logix head office in the States to make them aware of what is going on in the UK and twice been told that someone will call me back. I can only assume their customer service is just as effective as here in the UK.

Has anybody had more recent experience with buying Logix blocks ( from Build Better Homes) as I have been doing comparison pricing and found them cheaper. They are also the supplier of Isoquick insulated foundations which I am considering but am a little wary given Willbish's experience.