DonGillies Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Hello all, I'm looking for some advice on cost benefits of stick building instead of ordering a timber frame kit. I have received my first quote back for a timber frame package, cost has come back higher than I was expecting and I am now looking into stick building options so I can build the kit on site. The kit will be 145mm External Stud walls, lined externally with OSB and VC Foil, we will then have 120mm Rigid insulation inside the kit frame, then a further 50 Rigid insulation on the inside face of the kit. I have read some good reviews of Cullen Timber Design on here so have emailed them today for an idea on what they charge for their service. Does anyone have any real life comparisons on what they managed to build a kit for in comparison to what they had been quoted for a kit from a kit manufacturer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 We stick built one of our houses. Basically worked out roughly the same price as buying the kit once you factored in the cost of joiners making the frame up on site. If you are making the frame yourself (perfectly doable) then savings are to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 As stones said , we stick built our last place and saved a fortune, but that’s because we built it. I would think the time you paid two good chippies, and hired a telehandler there won’t be a lot of savings to be had the spec of your frame is fairly basic, have a look for a few more timber frame companies, and maybe avoid the ones that are at the home shows, then improve the frame with a better spec insulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonGillies Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 I think if the drawing is detailed enough from Cullen then I would consider building them onsite myself with the help from a labourer. I have already forked out a good deal of money on tools for the job, would just need to add a nail gun and make a large bench to work on. I would need to get the joiners in when it comes to the roof trusses i guess, but again these will be supplied direct from the truss manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our_Valleys_build Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 From our prices we’ve compared in the last few weeks for two dormer bungalows stick building was more expensive than factory build by a mile.. it seems chippys are hitting heavy on the quotes for site work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recoveringbuilder Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Have you tried claymore timber frame in fife, ours came from there , very good spec, and 20k cheaper than the joiners we were going to get to build on site 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 even builders with joiners buy kit houses a lot of the time for small projects ,because its cheaper that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Have a look at my blog @DonGillies Our self built is stick built. A couple of experienced joiners can knock together timber frame panels very quickly. - cost wise I checked kit houses prices for a similar size and it was a cheaper. - I didn't really want to buy an off-peg design and I would have imagined it would have been expensive for it to be design and cut by a manufacturer as presumably they work on economies of scale. - I could review the timber we used - It allowed flexibility to make any final changes as the kit was going up - No risk of foundations and kit being out of sync - The big one for me. Timber frame kit is paid in advance, Stick building with timber you are paying for the materials in arrears. - Not a huge one but I would prefer to give money to local tradesmen in my community rather than a kit manufacturer for the same end product. We have a room in roof design, so ordered prefabrication attic trusses, I think this is one area we wouldn't change. As this would have not been cost effective. In terms of plant hire we hired a telehandler for two weeks (£650), used for offloading trusses, lifting ridge beams and attic trusses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 7 hours ago, Thedreamer said: Have a look at my blog @DonGillies Our self built is stick built. A couple of experienced joiners can knock together timber frame panels very quickly. - cost wise I checked kit houses prices for a similar size and it was a cheaper. - I didn't really want to buy an off-peg design and I would have imagined it would have been expensive for it to be design and cut by a manufacturer as presumably they work on economies of scale. - I could review the timber we used - It allowed flexibility to make any final changes as the kit was going up - No risk of foundations and kit being out of sync - The big one for me. Timber frame kit is paid in advance, Stick building with timber you are paying for the materials in arrears. - Not a huge one but I would prefer to give money to local tradesmen in my community rather than a kit manufacturer for the same end product. We have a room in roof design, so ordered prefabrication attic trusses, I think this is one area we wouldn't change. As this would have not been cost effective. In terms of plant hire we hired a telehandler for two weeks (£650), used for offloading trusses, lifting ridge beams and attic trusses. Conversely... The TF companies are generally happy to do one-offs. All that we approached were. The economy of scale is in the purchase of timber and the utilisation of the manufacturing line. Todays automated lines are driven by a cad file, the operator is just placing occasional parts and inspecting. Our kit cost included all insulation, airtightness materials, and PB, as well as cranage and erection. Payments are phased, and (eg) ours were 30% deposit, 10% on completion of manufacture but before delivery, 45% on erection, and the final 15% will be on completion of the insulation works. Our kit manufacturer is local (~ 50mi) and both they and the erection subcontractor skilled locals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recoveringbuilder Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Our kit included all the above and insulation, flooring, breather membrane, all windows and doors (internal and external) all finishing materials, wardrobes, staircase even all screws and nails. We decided to go this way as we knew exactly what the price would be for all these materials, we were able to choose everything the same as we would have had we bought them separately and it made budgeting a lot easier as we knew all this was covered. The house we built previously was stick built and keeping control of the budget was impossible as the joiners couldn’t give us exact amounts of what would be needed and there was always something else that had been omitted, it also used up a lot of time sourcing materials at best price. If we were ever going to do it again it would definitely be a kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 5 hours ago, dpmiller said: Conversely... The TF companies are generally happy to do one-offs. All that we approached were. The economy of scale is in the purchase of timber and the utilisation of the manufacturing line. Todays automated lines are driven by a cad file, the operator is just placing occasional parts and inspecting. Our kit cost included all insulation, airtightness materials, and PB, as well as cranage and erection. Payments are phased, and (eg) ours were 30% deposit, 10% on completion of manufacture but before delivery, 45% on erection, and the final 15% will be on completion of the insulation works. Our kit manufacturer is local (~ 50mi) and both they and the erection subcontractor skilled locals. My experience has been very different. Our nearest timber frame manufacturer is a good three hours away. I phoned them twice and never got a call back. I believe some manufacturers can also be inflexible if you wish to change insulation levels. Although they often have a scale of rating of thermal performance so choice is available. For me I'm happy to plod away and fitted PIR/Frametherm myself which will reduce costs further. I would however expect a close panel timber frame kit to be more thermally efficient. I noted what you are saying about staged payments. But it's still a lot of money up front for a deposit particularly if you working in arrears on a self build mortgage. For me and guess others considering stick build. The fact that a kit goes up in a day or so is not really that beneficial if that comes at a cost. Our timber frame went up in June/July so not really concerned about getting wind and water tight. In every aspect of my self build. I work under the triangle of cost, quality, speed. This is discussed in the Home Builder's Bible. You can never have all three. Therefore if the kit goes up quickly it's come at either cost or quality, in this case cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our_Valleys_build Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) some mixed reviews on stick built and kit, i guess from alll our quotes this side of the bridge from stick build campared to factory is that stick build labour was in the region of 17 and 15 k per plot, along with at least 25-30k materails. factory made and they meassured base out quoted in the region of 22k for one 30k for the other thats all in too materails, erreection, delivery.. seems to me factory built is the most cost effective and fastest. i agree with keeping local tradesmen in work, and we have used these stick builders before. But i do believe they are taking the mick charging those sort of prices, same as brickies. im currently paying £17 a meter for 6" face block work... come the summer now i bet that will drop as there will be lots of building work around and they wont be able to push those sort of prices. Edited February 1, 2019 by Our_Valleys_build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 It really bugs me when people comment on how much these tradesmen are charging how much do you lot earn a self employed bloke has to take every opportunity to earn as much as they possibly can. You need to step back and think of all the days they don’t earn anything not a penny wet days no work no pay chrismas holidays bank holidays the four weeks annual leave you all get no sick pay having to pay all your own pension contributions add that lot up and take it away from their daily charge and you will see that there is not a lot left £17 a metre for block work, how many m a day, take off tax,public liability insurance, tools, running a van,ppe in my time running my buisness i had a lot of young lads pass through my door, but today I would not encourage any of them to go self employed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our_Valleys_build Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: It really bugs me when people comment on how much these tradesmen are charging how much do you lot earn a self employed bloke has to take every opportunity to earn as much as they possibly can. You need to step back and think of all the days they don’t earn anything not a penny wet days no work no pay chrismas holidays bank holidays the four weeks annual leave you all get no sick pay having to pay all your own pension contributions add that lot up and take it away from their daily charge and you will see that there is not a lot left £17 a metre for block work, how many m a day, take off tax,public liability insurance, tools, running a van,ppe in my time running my buisness i had a lot of young lads pass through my door, but today I would not encourage any of them to go self employed. Im a tradesman myself and i do understand the value of the trade and would not under sell my self. Thats correct they do need to account for holidays sick ppe etc i guess the way you price every job is different, maybe a small job higher rate make it worth while, bigger job maybe a more reasonable steady rate? as you can predict there will be steady money for a while. For £17 a meter i do get the best quality from all aspects, if i wasnt i wouldnt be paying it.. and from my point of view as the guy whos paying the bill at the end of the day, its my priority to save as much as i can where i can as im sure you would to if you was in my shoes lol. its just two sides of the fence... The block work meter wasnt the issue really, i was just stating that it will prob drop in the summer time as more work will be available... supply and demand.... its the amount that the stick builders quote for labour was the issue. 17k per plot for two peoples labour.. seems exsessive in my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Labour usually more expensive in summer as supply is shorter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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