(C)old stone cottage- orig floor insulate?

[Ferdinand]

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@Ferdinand can you explain perimeter insulation.. are you talking walls, externally? Im not entertaining this idea if so, as it'll detract from the contoured original exterior. The orig 'shell' 4 walls are are undoubtadly cold slate lumps sure.. but will have to be, & everything but the kitchen sink addressed/ attacked but them: that's the basic action plan for the house.

 

i can not find a clear reference on BH, but this thread on GBF includes some clear explanation.

 

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10829

 

F

[A_L]

2 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

So would an inset, insulated, heated block of concrete as a thermal store mitigate some of that?

 

In as much as the current floor is probably at 15°C or less and a UFH floor in this house might be at 25°C or more and would half the floor/barefoot dT, then yes. But the high thermal conductivity of concrete will mean there will always be some cooling effect.

[Onoff]

This help?

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

All very interesting, much appreciate the info (if a little complicated number-wise, for me that is). I'm basically on board with the perimeter idea, although I'm really not sure at all with the old 4-thick-walled 'shell' alarmingly in-out in places: the idea of digging down 1m around Id be very reticent about. Its not s'thing my builder mentioned either, briefly talking on the cold floor as we did/ him noticing scraps of blue dpc 'evidence'.

 

Id really only be entertaining the original idea of digging the floor up, I think tbh, if of course the consensus IS that it is a genuinely decent idea.

 

  @Ferdinand my beams are exposed, & 6'8" between.. & 6'1" @ the lowest cross beams points! seriously, the lowest Ive ever known I think.

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

All very interesting, much appreciate the info (if a little complicated number-wise, for me that is). I'm basically on board with the perimeter idea, although I'm really not sure at all with the old 4-thick-walled 'shell' alarmingly in-out in places: the idea of digging down 1m around Id be very reticent about. Its not s'thing my builder mentioned either, briefly talking on the cold floor as we did/ him noticing scraps of blue dpc 'evidence'.

 

Id really only be entertaining the original idea of digging the floor up, I think tbh, if of course the consensus IS that it is a genuinely decent idea.

 

  @Ferdinand my beams are exposed, & 6'8" between.. & 6'1" @ the lowest cross beams points! seriously, the lowest Ive ever known I think.

 

There's a pub in Shoreham (Ye Olde George Inn) straight out of Lilliput the ceiling's that low!

[zoothorn]

My main room in Q. Got it pretty warm this ev- far more comfortable when its DRY outside, even if cold: if WET atmos then the room & house gets cold almost regardless of the actual temp. Weird. But sort of tells my instinct, that wet underneath = a sort of vehicle for cold.. summink like this.

 

The staircase.. is awful/ 'agricultural' effort- so yet another job to replace it: which I gotta do somehow with the wood tools I have (£4k quote from a local Co for a pine rebuild!). And I guess would have to follow on immediately from the floor job (& a temporary ladder instead while jobs on.. urgh).

 

 

[zoothorn]

Omg if I had underfloor heating in here! I can't stop thinking on it now Onoff's shown me that pic.

 

I guess one thing this major house insulate 2 BIGass jobs won't give me (upstairs rockwoolling-the-fkn-lot the no.1 priority) is anything visible or 'worthy' for an estate agent to spiel about.. unlike "!underfloor heating!" is all bells n whistles. Just one addition/ & its innitial cost of course, within the job = adding significant value..?

[Ferdinand]

8 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@Ferdinand my beams are exposed, & 6'8" between.. & 6'1" @ the lowest cross beams points! seriously, the lowest Ive ever known I think.

 

You need one of these for your lounge to lower the floor level !

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Onoff]

Something on these lines maybe? Improve the drainage around the house and insulate? Would mean paying a man with a digger.

 

 

Deffo won't be as easy as in the pic as your foundation will likely be wider than the wall sitting on it. This picture of my place. You can see the blue duct passing under the strip footing which is wider than the wall.

 

My house is similar to yours in that it looks like one big house but is really made up from add ons from when it was built in the 30s. Hence many different wall thicknesses and make ups. Hell, some walls are made from 3 or 4 different brick, block types all rendered over. I feel your pain. I've been considering EWI but rather than going straight down with the board would need to dog leg around the fittings.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Deffo won't be as easy as in the pic as your foundation will likely be wider than the wall sitting on it. This picture of my place. You can see the blue duct passing under the strip footing which is wider than the wall.

 

I think no foundations at all, or minimal, is more likely.

 

Test hole required first.

 

No foundations = do not dig out the foundations (ie the ground) next to the wall that is standing on it. In that case you do "wing" insulation rather than "skirt". Wing = horizontally along the ground, say under a path round the house. Or you return to Plan A and dig up the floor.

 

F

[Ed Davies]

24 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Wing = horizontally along the ground,

 

Or sloping outwards. Angles of repose, and all that.

[zoothorn]

I'm not quite visualising these various suggestions &/ or can't put any external plan into action due to possible extension addition on the end of house (onto sheer blank wall @ fireplace end.. opposite to kitchen extention in the foreground).. which would need new foundations. Ive got planning for this ext, but up a gumtree re. costs & understanding the regs/ protocol so given up.. but may come back to do it when the right plan hits me.

 

The reason I was thinking planA (dig up floor etc) was bc my builder made this as a suggestion.. & only this. Id assume maybe it being the simplest for him to do, builders being builders. He does know the house to a degree, & saw the floor hands on though. I think it might be the only conceivable thing I could actually do, without getting into a huge pickle attempting anything more complicated.

 

Tbh I can't conceive of digging up externally, digger etc. Ive got water pipes & leccy cables buried, in-out relief to walls let alone unknown foundations & the ~possible~ extention adding onto 1 of the 3 'exposed' shell walls (4th tied up with the kitchen extension onto it).

[Ed Davies]

Though it was me that brought up perimeter insulation, I'd agree that replacing the floor with an insulated one would probably be preferable if it's feasible. Just had visions of you having to rip out your recently done kitchen. But it would leave a big thermal bridge down through the walls into the cold ground unless the underfloor insulation is well connected to any internal wall insulation you do.

[newhome]

41 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

Just had visions of you having to rip out your recently done kitchen. But it would leave a big thermal bridge down through the walls into the cold ground unless the underfloor insulation is well connected to any internal wall insulation you do.

 

I think the floor dig / insulation plan is for the main living room rather than the kitchen (photos a few up from here) which is part of the original house (kitchen is an 80s extension). Not sure where that leaves insulating the walls of that room as @zoothorn seems to like the original rustic look both internally and externally (I think!). 

 

[newhome]

15 hours ago, zoothorn said:

The staircase.. is awful/ 'agricultural' effort- so yet another job to replace it: which I gotta do somehow with the wood tools I have (£4k quote from a local Co for a pine rebuild!). And I guess would have to follow on immediately from the floor job (& a temporary ladder instead while jobs on.. urgh).

 

You can buy a cheap staircase from somewhere like Stairbox for circa 3 hundred quid so not sure where the 4k comes in although it would need to be fitted of course. For that money it would be MDF / ply so would need to be carpeted but they do real wood options too although that's clearly more expensive. A few people have bought them from there, @Hecateh for one. You would need to fill in the back of the staircase as it would be open but with your woodworking skills that shouldn't be too much hassle for you.  

[zoothorn]

Yes exactly as newhome

52 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

Though it was me that brought up perimeter insulation, I'd agree that replacing the floor with an insulated one would probably be preferable if it's feasible. Just had visions of you having to rip out your recently done kitchen. But it would leave a big thermal bridge down through the walls into the cold ground unless the underfloor insulation is well connected to any internal wall insulation you do.

 

Yes exactly as newhome suggests above, its only the main room this would be for: within the original 'shell' 4 walls. The adjacent kitchen is not part of the plan, as Ive just done it & moving onto the lino/ finishing off.

 

I'm not planning internal wall insulation within the main room: I cannot face ruining the character, ruining / compromising the space which I'm fairly limited with being my main space, or face doing the job anyway. They will be the achilles heel re cold yes/ this I'm aware of. But cold walls or not, I cannot let them stop me addressing the terribly cold floor by staying as is.

 

The only thing in Q is the cold coming up/ in from the floor.

[zoothorn]

15 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

I think the floor dig / insulation plan is for the main living room rather than the kitchen (photos a few up from here) which is part of the original house (kitchen is an 80s extension). Not sure where that leaves insulating the walls of that room as @zoothorn seems to like the original rustic look both internally and externally (I think!). 

 

 

Its not neccessarily that I like the look, its a Q of cost/ & my skillset to attempt a job. Complicated external digger jobs (I cant use one) & additions to depth, however terrific the results might be, are simply 3-4 leagues out of my remit (& a recipe for disaster if nothing else). Hiring a jack-hammer, hand-digging, laying sheets of xyz, hiring a whacker-plate, doing a concrete layer, smoothing.. are all possibles due to low'ish difficulty levels.. therefore I could attempt (I very much hope). Even these low'ish difficulty level steps lets say it might entail, is a HUGE leap into the unknown for me.

 

But anything more complex I'm not qualified, skilled. Same with upstairs rockwool/ pB redo, & the kitchen which was only a huge fiddle rather than anything of difficulty (even the plumbing) once Id got the hang of it.

 

I must just stick to internal, & as simple as too.. for this stage of my skillset. In 5-10 years I could maybe come back & go to level 3 or 4 difficulty, but Id need to be very sure 1st- I doubt I'll ever be this competent tbh.

 

Many thanks- zoot.

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Its not neccessarily that I like the look,

 

I quite like the rustic look of the walls of the original house as it happens although that doesn't help you in terms of insulation. A dig up the floor affair like @Onoff has managed would seem to be the way forward although I dare say that there will be some blood, sweat and tears whilst that is going on, and you'll be pretty much living in the kitchen for a good while. Won't be an overnight job. As someone else suggests a small area to use as a trial to see what's underneath there would seem to be the first thing to do. 

[Onoff]

When you do the lino I wonder if there's any mileage in laying a foil based underlay, something like this:

 

http://www.therma-foil.co.uk/flooring.php

 

?

[zoothorn]

Another good link Onoff, that seems a fine idea- only snag being the cabinets mean I can only vinyl up to them, so where all the worktop areas are couldn't have this stuff on floor.. I wonder whether that might negate the overall benefit if not doing all the floor area.

 

How much extra depth would I need if adding that underfloor heating element: is there any reason I couldn't consider this addition, if I'm doing a concrete 'top' layer (I assume it slips in here)? Id think  very dear if I did the whole ~6x4m mind you- maybe spread it, or in middle 2/3rds only.

[Cpd]

I am at some point going to be doing a similar project on a very similar cottage, my slab is already in situ and there is no way it’s coming up as I know it can’t go any lower... my ceilings height will max out at just over 2.2m so I am having to compromise on the amount of insulation I would like and except some heat losses. This place is a holiday let during summer and will be where I live during the winter while I tackle my main house bit by bit.....   this is my planned build up.......  just an example. 

 

Down stairs Floor build up living area  aprox 9 x 4.3m 

Concrete slab 

Calotex 90mm Bonded to flooor with foam 

20mm underfloor heating pipe boards bonded to Calotex with foam

Thin underlay as recomended  by heating board website...... 

possible 6mm ply floating on underlay 

16mm solid strand, tongue and groove bamboo flooring fully bonded to ply with flexible something or another.....  

 

ASHP and MVHR 

[Hecateh]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Another good link Onoff, that seems a fine idea- only snag being the cabinets mean I can only vinyl up to them, so where all the worktop areas are couldn't have this stuff on floor.. I wonder whether that might negate the overall benefit if not doing all the floor area.

 

How much extra depth would I need if adding that underfloor heating element: is there any reason I couldn't consider this addition, if I'm doing a concrete 'top' layer (I assume it slips in here)? Id think  very dear if I did the whole ~6x4m mind you- maybe spread it, or in middle 2/3rds only.

 

Only being able to vinyl up to the cupboards may reduce the benefit BUT will make a huge difference underfoot by making a barrier between your feet and the cold floor I would think.  

[zoothorn]

On 05/01/2019 at 20:28, Onoff said:

 

How did it die? Did you try the hdd in a USB caddy?

 

@Onoff just picking up on this subject Onoff.. it was my stalwart old XP laptop, which just won't boot up/ wont get to the windows xp start.

 

I had loads of pics of that pro build taken -just for- situations a few years down the line, like now- Id sure love to get them back. Took the HD out/ scrapped the rest. What you think- any chance of retrieval?

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

@Onoff just picking up on this subject Onoff.. it was my stalwart old XP laptop, which just won't boot up/ wont get to the windows xp start.

 

I had loads of pics of that pro build taken -just for- situations a few years down the line, like now- Id sure love to get them back. Took the HD out/ scrapped the rest. What you think- any chance of retrieval?

 

ANY screen action at all?  There may be a chance you can remove the hard disc (easy), slap it in a USB hard drive caddy then connect to your current laptop to get the files off.

 

What make and model is the XP laptop?

 

Edit: Just read you just kept the HDD. Is it IDE or SATA?

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

It was a dell d600 (yup that old!). I took the HD out. But surely if put this in a caddy it still won't work-? (ie I cant see how the caddy would 'revive it')