100% off grid?

[gc100]

Our barn conversion project is in open countryside. Its going to cost about 40K to get electricity to it. Just wondering if I could actually spend that 40K towards a setup so that we are 100% reliable.

 

Is it possible without a very large compromise in terms of living. I'm talking mid winter - 2 weeks of snow.

[Moonshine]

have you got a stream / river nearby?

[ToughButterCup]

47 minutes ago, gc100 said:

[...]

Just wondering if I could actually spend that 40K towards a setup so that we are 100% reliable.

[...]

 

I've been looking forward to someone asking this question....... Gonna pour myself a large mug of tea, put my feet up and watch. 

 

I think folk will want to know the orientation of your roof space(s) in relation to the sun, how close you are to  a reliable water source , how you intend to  treat it, and your tolerance threshold for  listening to trades folk suck their teeth or in some cases, dentures. 

 

 

Whatever, welcome.

PS, I have a decent Landrover for sale. Full meat-head fit out

[epsilonGreedy]

Back in the 1980's I spent a few days in a luxury country villa that was off grid, there was no obvious compromise in lifestyle. One of the outbuildings contained a diesel generator and a large bank of wet acid 12 volt batteries. Technology has advanced since then.

[Jeremy Harris]

It's definitely possible and practical to be completely off-grid, but is far from being as maintenance-free as being on-grid and always needs a degree of tinkering to get a system set up and keep it working. 

 

One good source of info is Paul Camilli's blog: https://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/ .  He's been living off grid on Raasay for many years, and has pretty much got everything cracked when it comes to what works and what doesn't.  He does have the advantage of a fair bit of wind, plus a constant low power hydro system, but IIRC he gets a fair bit of his energy from solar. 

 

I think you probably have to be a pretty practical sort of individual to keep everything running smoothly, as paying for someone to come out and fix things, look after batteries, do the maintenance on wind turbines, generators etc, would probably be both challenging and expensive.

 

Having said that, my uncle's farm was off-grid until the mid 1960s, and had nothing more complex than a big Lister generator for power.  That was started up when power was needed each day, then shut down in the evening, when oil lamps were used for light, but this was back before everyone had TVs and other stuff that needs to be powered.

[Onoff]

Wind turbine? Compost heating? Biogas plant? Planning any livestock? Much land to provide greenstuff to feed such things? Got a lake?

 

All fun to play with but you need to be hands on and like tinkering.

 

Back up gennie a must imo.

 

Start of with a super insulated build with attention to shading in Summer to lower your energy needs as much as possible.

[Onoff]

I think that Paul Camilli chap has a massive thermal store and a battery system. If there's too much PV to charge the batteries it diverts to the thermal store.

 

[scottishjohn]

"chips" system   actually CHP micro boiler--plenty of makes about and you get RHI as well

boiler that makes electric as well as heat add that to all other modern techs and you are there -just got to feed that with oil,or gas in depths of winter 

Edited December 3, 2018 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

 not saying this is the best one, but all work the same  added to solar pv +batteries   you got it sorted  all year round  no matter the snow etc

 

www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/central-heating/baxi-ecogen-micro-chp-combined-heat-power-boiler-replacement

[gc100]

2 hours ago, Moonshine said:

have you got a stream / river nearby?

 

No unfortunately not.

[gc100]

2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

I've been looking forward to someone asking this question....... Gonna pour myself a large mug of tea, put my feet up and watch. 

 

I think folk will want to know the orientation of your roof space(s) in relation to the sun, how close you are to  a reliable water source , how you intend to  treat it, and your tolerance threshold for  listening to trades folk suck their teeth or in some cases, dentures. 

 

 

Whatever, welcome.

PS, I have a decent Landrover for sale. Full meat-head fit out

 

Ha ha  yes. Well south facing roof, water will be water bore (160m depth).

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 

Ha ha  yes. Well south facing roof, water will be water bore (160m depth).

 

Put in a GSHP loop at the same time?

[gc100]

Thanks all for the replies. Its in Norfolk so not the most windy place in the world. Plus I would need planning permission (I have no PD rights). Biomass might be a possible but not ideal. I'm hands on and technical so maintenance will be ok. Thermal store could be an option I suppose (the ground).

 

Ideally I would need to find someone who could design the whole system and know what they are doing. However I have no idea how to find such a person.

 

 

 

 

[gc100]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

Put in a GSHP loop at the same time?

 

I have no idea whether the chap/people who does the water bore can do that. as the pipes are normally put down the bore hole on the inside, I can't see how GSHP pipes could be of any good inside?

[scottishjohn]

wave a cheque usually works .LOL

[scottishjohn]

DO NOT go gshp --it is not the way in uk climate --cost to do will never be economical -- £20-30k for that  If in canada ,where you get -20c for months yes --not in uk 

ASHP 2-8k depending on who does it  will still run down to -18 --but not as effiecntly as GSHP --but thats one week every year ?

ASHP is the way --but you need electric for that 

now you need to say how big this is going to be and can you bring  it up to nearly passiv insulation values --

that will dramtically drop your energy requirement 

[Mr Punter]

Have a look at the contestable elements of the £40k quote and see if you can get it done for less.

 

Also have a look at @JSHarris's experience with a borehole water supply - not always at all simple.

[ToughButterCup]

56 minutes ago, gc100 said:

[...]

However I have no idea how to find such a person

[...]

 

Oh yes you have.

If we (corporate 'we') can't help you solve the problem of finding the right expert, nobody can. All you need is persistence.

[Onoff]

53 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

DO NOT go gshp --it is not the way in uk climate --cost to do will never be economical -- £20-30k for that  If in canada ,where you get -20c for months yes --not in uk 

ASHP 2-8k depending on who does it  will still run down to -18 --but not as effiecntly as GSHP --but thats one week every year ?

ASHP is the way --but you need electric for that 

now you need to say how big this is going to be and can you bring  it up to nearly passiv insulation values --

that will dramtically drop your energy requirement 

 

Does borehole water not come up at a temperature where useable heat can be extracted?

[ToughButterCup]

28 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

[...]

have a look at @JSHarris's experience with a borehole water supply - not always at all simple.

 

And if you want an example of persistence, that's one of the very best I have ever read. No matter how often I read it, it still makes my withers shrink - well disappear actually. I could not have been that hard core about finding a solution to a self-build problem.

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Does borehole water not come up at a temperature where useable heat can be extracted?

 

Yes, it does, it's around 8 deg C in our case.  I looked at two ways of using a borehole as a heat pump collector, as the additional cost of a second borehole purely as a collector was small - much of the cost in drilling is associated with the fixed costs of getting the rig and people on site, plus lining the hole etc, and a collector hole doesn't need lining, as it gets grouted when the pipes are down it anyway.

 

If you want to pump water from a borehole and run it through a heat exchanger on a heat pump then there are a couple of issues.  The first is that it takes a fair bit of power to pump water up from the borehole, far more than that needed to just circulate water through a closed pipe collector.  The second issue is that the EA consider water pumped out of a borehole to be extraction, even if the water goes straight back down the same hole, and it's easy to exceed the 20,000 litres per day licence-free extraction limit.

 

Overall, an open-loop system for extracting heat from borehole water doesn't seem that efficient, which is probably why borehole heat collectors tend to always be closed loop pipe systems.

[gc100]

57 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

DO NOT go gshp --it is not the way in uk climate --cost to do will never be economical -- £20-30k for that  If in canada ,where you get -20c for months yes --not in uk 

ASHP 2-8k depending on who does it  will still run down to -18 --but not as effiecntly as GSHP --but thats one week every year ?

ASHP is the way --but you need electric for that 

now you need to say how big this is going to be and can you bring  it up to nearly passiv insulation values --

that will dramtically drop your energy requirement 

 

 

GSHP vs ASHP - I've not had time yet to look into that. I know the consensus on here is to go ASHP mostly from @JSHarris recommendation/research I believe?. GSHP I was hoping would be covered by the Renewable Heat Incentive but haven't looked into all that aspect yet.  

 

I'll be trying to get the project to near enerphit/passive standard.

[gc100]

39 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Have a look at the contestable elements of the £40k quote and see if you can get it done for less.

 

Also have a look at @JSHarris's experience with a borehole water supply - not always at all simple.

 

I've looked at every aspect of the quote including contestable etc, I've got is down to 40K from something more!.

 

I'm not too worried about the water, as the farmer just down the road has one and others in the village. The water table is well know in this area. Obviously anything can happen, but I have no choice other than drill.

[jack]

8 minutes ago, gc100 said:

GSHP vs ASHP - I've not had time yet to look into that. I know the consensus on here is to go ASHP mostly from @JSHarris recommendation/research I believe?. GSHP I was hoping would be covered by the Renewable Heat Incentive but haven't looked into all that aspect yet.  

 

The main thing that puts people off GSHP is just cost. It more or less can't be done properly for less than £10k, and for most it'll cost more like £15k+

 

ASHPs, in contrast, can be done for as little as £2k installed, if you're willing to do some of the work yourself.

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, jack said:

ASHPs, in contrast, can be done for as little as £2k installed, if you're willing to do some of the work yourself.

 

I don't want to take this off track but is that a viable swap out for an oil boiler in a draughty old house. At that sort of figure I might well consider it.