Sunamp installation

[Nickfromwales]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

And it's also possible it proved inadequate in cold weather.

And therein lays the problem. The system needs to be able to cope with the most adverse month(s) of the year, so you have choices. Put in a system that caters for the average, and then fortify with auxiliary heaters eg oil filled electric radiators ( nice looking ones ) and just use those when they're needed to give a little boost, perhaps with those just in the bedrooms for eg.

35 minutes ago, stevethayne said:

to get enough rate of flow to provide heating from Sunamp units alone via the radiators would require multiple units?

a) yes possibly, as the hydraulic resistance of the SA heat exchanger would dictate the temp and flow rate that it discharged. As you be at the very upper end of the PCM58's range you may have to slow the flow to maintain a high flow temp, or fit 2 units in parallel. FYI the eHeat units for space heating only ( typically ) have 2 x heat exchangers so can handle more flow by paralleling the input and output of the two exchangers ( therefore nearly doubling the flow rate ).

b) not quite for flow, more to be able to input multiples of 3kW until you achieve equilibrium. 

[stevethayne]

23 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

And therein lays the problem. The system needs to be able to cope with the most adverse month(s) of the year, so you have choices. Put in a system that caters for the average, and then fortify with auxiliary heaters eg oil filled electric radiators ( nice looking ones ) and just use those when they're needed to give a little boost, perhaps with those just in the bedrooms for eg.

a) yes possibly, as the hydraulic resistance of the SA heat exchanger would dictate the temp and flow rate that it discharged. As you'd be at the very upper end of the PCM58's range you may have to slow the flow to maintain a high flow temp, or fit 2 units in parallel. FYI the eHeat units for space heating only ( typically ) have 2 x heat exchangers so can handle more flow by paralleling the input and output of the two exchangers ( therefore nearly doubling the flow rate ).

b) not quite for flow, more to be able to input multiples of 3kW until you achieve equilibrium. 

Yes, the supplementing when needed is what I was anticipating. I have a lot of wood cut and stored in the garden. Am anticipating a wood burner, not for everyday use but for occasional days when at home all day and particularly cold. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, stevethayne said:

Yes, the supplementing when needed is what I was anticipating. I have a lot of wood cut and stored in the garden. Am anticipating a wood burner, not for everyday use but for occasional days when at home all day and particularly cold. 

But slightly at odds with the 'green initiative' ?

[stevethayne]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

But slightly at odds with the 'green initiative' ?

 

The hope is 1.) The wood burned will all be locally sourced and in burning it carbon neutral 2.) I will be able to invest in a decent enough burner that particulate emission is minimal and filtered out as far as possible.

 

I will need to keep cutting back the hedges anyway, and this wood would otherwise go to Veolia and probably burned in their near by incinerator!

[Jeremy Harris]

The concept of "carbon neutral" with burning wood is flawed because of the large time delays involved.  A mature tree converts around 20kg of CO₂ into biomass each year, but burning a tree releases the whole of its sequestered  CO₂ into the atmosphere a heck of a lot quicker. 

 

However, the really big issue with burning wood is the pollution it creates, especially fine particulates.  Running a wood burning stove can release as much harmful pollutants as having a dozen or more diesel cars parked on your drive with their engines running.

 

The best thing to do with wood cuttings that are surplus is to compost them, as at least that slows the release of CO₂ to the atmosphere.

[ProDave]

I don't subscribe to the notion that burning wood is "carbon neutral"  Burning anything sends CO2 up your chimney.  The notion that cutting down trees specifically to burn is "carbon neutral" is some warped logic that I don't agree with. Would it not be better to leave the trees to grow and absorb more carbon and burn coal instead? (not meant as a serious suggestion but to illustrate the flaw in the wood is carbon neutral theory)

 

I do burn wood myself but I never cut trees down for it, it is all windfall that I burn.

[Ed Davies]

If you have a house sitting next to a bit of woodland and the owner starts cutting trees and burning them then, yes, initially there'll be a pulse of CO₂ emission. Once the setup is in a steady state, and assuming the cutting is done at a rate so that replacement growth happens quickly enough, then there will not be further net emissions, will there?

 

There are all sorts of other problems associated with wood burning: especially particulate emissions but also, if it's not very locally harvested, then the embodied emissions from the cutting and transport and that removing wood from land removes other nutrients. I suppose putting the ash back on the land would help with that but have no idea if that really makes sense.

 

People and animals have been breathing out for thousands of years without increasing the CO₂ content of the atmosphere. It's only when they (the people plus some of the animals) started clearing lots of land for agriculture about 6 or 7'000 years ago that the CO₂ content began to increase beyond what it would have been as a result of Milankovitch cycles - assuming you take William Ruddiman's theories seriously which many. but far from all, relevant scientists do.

[stevethayne]

Installing a wood burning stove isn't a certainty for me at the moment and not a priority. All my finances are going on solar (over 5kwh installed soon on both roofs to maximise self consumption) and some form of electric storage heating.

 

May well post on here if I do decide on a wood burner. But either way I need to dispose of the very significant amount of cut wood I already have - and don't fancy land fill. I also need to keep cutting it to stop my neighbours and myself losing light. I want to stay with hedges for the habitat for birds, but also wooden fences in my estate are prone to vandalism.

 

My early thoughts on an occasional use of a wood burner is 1.) Proper seasoning of the wood reduces by 90% the particilates you get from an open fire with wood not seasoned so still with high moisture levels 2.) There are chimneys and technological solutions like this one that could further reduce particulate risk.

 

EcoStream A chimney fan with particle filter - Metaloterm
PDFwww.metaloterm.com › upload › ecostre...
 

Thank you again for the other thoughts on Sunamp. Am going to think through and further explore the options open to me.

 

 

[oranjeboom]

On 05/10/2018 at 22:10, JSHarris said:

OK, I'm going to do  write up, with photos, on our experience with first a Sunamp PV, and since the beginning of this week with a Sunamp UniQ 9 eHW, as a blog entry this weekend. 

 

Good morning Jeremy! Did you already manage to update your blog? I had a look this morning, but could not find your "dummies guide to installing a Sunamp UniQ". Have the electrician coming shortly and no doubt he may need input. Not had my coffee yet, so I may have overlooked it on your blog.

Edited October 16, 2018 by oranjeboom

[Jeremy Harris]

Sorry, it's still only half done.  I will try and get the diagram finished and something up over the next day or two.

[oranjeboom]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Sorry, it's still only half done.  I will try and get the diagram finished and something up over the next day or two.

 

No problem Jeremy - thought I may have overlooked it. Electrician did come this morning and was scratching his head so I told him to leave it for now, rather than me paying for him to be reading the Sunamp and PV diverter instructions. So no rush on my account Jeremy!

[Onoff]

On 12/10/2018 at 21:45, stevethayne said:

Installing a wood burning stove isn't a certainty for me at the moment and not a priority. All my finances are going on solar (over 5kwh installed soon on both roofs to maximise self consumption) and some form of electric storage heating.

 

May well post on here if I do decide on a wood burner. But either way I need to dispose of the very significant amount of cut wood I already have - and don't fancy land fill. I also need to keep cutting it to stop my neighbours and myself losing light. I want to stay with hedges for the habitat for birds, but also wooden fences in my estate are prone to vandalism.

 

My early thoughts on an occasional use of a wood burner is 1.) Proper seasoning of the wood reduces by 90% the particilates you get from an open fire with wood not seasoned so still with high moisture levels 2.) There are chimneys and technological solutions like this one that could further reduce particulate risk.

 

EcoStream A chimney fan with particle filter - Metaloterm
PDFwww.metaloterm.com › upload › ecostre...
 

Thank you again for the other thoughts on Sunamp. Am going to think through and further explore the options open to me.

 

 

 

Too late to incorporate a hypocaust? 

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, oranjeboom said:

 

No problem Jeremy - thought I may have overlooked it. Electrician did come this morning and was scratching his head so I told him to leave it for now, rather than me paying for him to be reading the Sunamp and PV diverter instructions. So no rush on my account Jeremy!

 

If you're fitting a Sunamp UniQ eHW then all the electrician needs to run is a low current (6 A) supply via a fused connection unit (FCU) plus a 16 A supply.  Run a 20 A radial from the consumer unit to the PV diverter location, fitted with a 20 A double pole isolating switch.  Run a cable from this isolator directly to the PV diverter, then run an additional cable from the isolator to the FCU, fused at 6 A.  Run two cables from the PV diverter location to the Sunamp location, a length of 2.5mm² T&E for the switched heater power from the PV diverter and a length of 1mm² T&E from the FCU.  The thinner cable provides power to the Sunamp control box, the thicker cable provides the switched power that runs the heater, via the Sunamp control box.

[Nickfromwales]

Yup. Dead simple. If your solar diverter isn’t in yet you can just bridge 230v in the SA Qontroller and it’ll run happily that way as a temporary measure for proving. 

Tell your guy it’ll have a bit of an on / off ‘crazy 5 minutes’ with the contractor kicking in and out a lot, which is supposed to happen. It’s to pulse heat in at the start and allow the PCM to start melting gently from the crystallised form. Sounds like something between electrical arcing and a scrumpled up crisp packet quietly unfolding. Not loud, but quite off putting when firing up your first unit   

[stevethayne]

9 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

Too late to incorporate a hypocaust? 

Ha! Had to google that! And yes Though the Romans did make longer lasting cement than we do today, so maybe....

[stevethayne]

Have moved away from the Sunamp units, much though I love the idea. I would need multiples of the units bringing the cost closer to battery storage. And the battery storage would allow me to supplement other loads like cooking and other peak rate use that would cost 20p a unit from the grid.

 

Gas prices are shockingly cheaper than electric per unit of energy. Half the cost of cheap rate economy 7 electricity even

Making it a challenge to do what I really want to do. Come off the gas grid because of it's health and environmental impact. 

Even though electric heating, cooking, hot water is much more efficent per unit of energy.

 

Air Source Heat Pumps are back in the mix for me too. rhi payments alone look like they will repay the capital cost over 7 years? And additional money if you let them monitor you. But again, without battery storage using peak rate electric.

 

Solar by itself makes sense over the longer term. With the help of the feed in tariff it pays for itself and a little more.

I use so little peak rate electricity though. What I would love to do is to have solar + battery storage + Electric boiler for heat and instant hot water.

Hard to make the numbers work just yet. Making my head spin. And I like this stuff as a rule!

Back to it...)

[Nickfromwales]

6 hours ago, stevethayne said:

Have moved away from the Sunamp units, much though I love the idea. I would need multiples of the units bringing the cost closer to battery storage. And the battery storage would allow me to supplement other loads like cooking and other peak rate use that would cost 20p a unit from the grid.

 

Gas prices are shockingly cheaper than electric per unit of energy. Half the cost of cheap rate economy 7 electricity even

Making it a challenge to do what I really want to do. Come off the gas grid because of it's health and environmental impact. 

Even though electric heating, cooking, hot water is much more efficent per unit of energy.

 

Air Source Heat Pumps are back in the mix for me too. rhi payments alone look like they will repay the capital cost over 7 years? And additional money if you let them monitor you. But again, without battery storage using peak rate electric.

 

Solar by itself makes sense over the longer term. With the help of the feed in tariff it pays for itself and a little more.

I use so little peak rate electricity though. What I would love to do is to have solar + battery storage + Electric boiler for heat and instant hot water.

Hard to make the numbers work just yet. Making my head spin. And I like this stuff as a rule!

Back to it...)

 

Agree.

To run a retro fit dwelling off SA's is a very tricky, and costly, equation. Perhaps concentrate on fabric first and then look again once you've reduced your energy requirements? If you do go for a wood burning stove then also make sure its room sealed and takes its air from a ducted run to outside, as that'll keep the ventilation losses of the WBS to a minimum. TBH, I'd use that money on PV and batteries and reduce your homes footprint in other ways.

ASHP's aren't matched to high temperature emitters like traditional central heating radiators, so beware any cock-sure salesmen folk who tell you it is. In fairness, if you get PV to offset the electricity consumption and fortify with battery storage for nighttime use you'll be in a reasonably good place, but again beware of the high temp requirements. Fabric improvements and serious draught-proofing will help out considerably there. Another option is to change the radiators ( probably get away with doings downstairs only ) to much bigger / lower temp requirement ones but at that stage an electric boiler is still on the list IMO.

A SA for DHW would be a good move however, as any electric combi will be a monstrous unit to get any even slightly decent flow rates / capacity. An electric boiler providing dumb heat only would be very efficient and very compact. PV would then give you free DHW and with really high flow rates ( via the SA ) so still retaining a bit of luxury too. FYI electric combis are heat-store / thermal store based units so need to be on 24/7 or timed well in advance of needing DHW.......yuk. Not good.

[oranjeboom]

18 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

If you're fitting a Sunamp UniQ eHW then all the electrician needs to run is a low current (6 A) supply via a fused connection unit (FCU) plus a 16 A supply.  Run a 20 A radial from the consumer unit to the PV diverter location, fitted with a 20 A double pole isolating switch.  Run a cable from this isolator directly to the PV diverter, then run an additional cable from the isolator to the FCU, fused at 6 A.  Run two cables from the PV diverter location to the Sunamp location, a length of 2.5mm² T&E for the switched heater power from the PV diverter and a length of 1mm² T&E from the FCU.  The thinner cable provides power to the Sunamp control box, the thicker cable provides the switched power that runs the heater, via the Sunamp control box.

 

 

Thanks Jeremy. I've read through that several times and hopefully have this correct in my schematic below. I have two Uniq eDual 12 units but I see from the manual (2018_07_19_V2.0) on page 18 that the wiring is the same as for the eHW. I may place the PV diverter (Apollo Gem) in the same room as the SA unit using a transmitter from the consumer unit.

 

[Triassic]

Oh, I’ve just been invited to attend a Sunamp installers traning course.....

[newhome]

5 minutes ago, Triassic said:

Oh, I’ve just been invited to attend a Sunamp installers traning course.....

 

Do you have to pay? Is that the course @Nickfromwales just went on? 

[Triassic]

No, it’s free to those “in the trade”, nod nod wink wink!

 

All you  have to do is produce your training certificates.

 

 

[newhome]

3 minutes ago, Triassic said:

No, it’s free to those “in the trade”, nod nod wink wink!

 

All you  have to do is produce your training certificates.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like some on here know more than some of their resellers already ... 

 

Should get a BuildHub course in plan 

[Jeremy Harris]

11 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

 

Sounds like some on here know more than some of their resellers already ... 

 

Should get a BuildHub course in plan 

 

I think there are two of us here that are approved installers so far, although I was approved on the basis of a couple of email exchanges and a long phone call with their technical chap, rather than doing a course.  Since fitting the pre-production Sunamp PV I learned a fair bit about how these things work, and the really good news is that the Sunamp UniQ series are a great deal easier to install, from a technical standpoint, and massively simpler internally.  The only point to note when thinking about one is really the weight.  It's less than that of an equivalent capacity hot water cylinder when filled, but a heck of a lot heavier as delivered.  The weight means that the location for the unit needs to be thought about in more detail, and ideally it needs to be on the ground floor.

 

[newhome]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

 I was approved on the basis of a couple of email exchanges and a long phone call with their technical chap, rather than doing a course.

 

Never turn down the opportunity of a trip away talking geeko stuff with like minded individuals