Timescale to remove HV overhead cables (with no valid wayleave)?

[oranjeboom]

Had a nightmare with overhead power cables when the side extension was about to start. Full story on ebuild for anyone wanting background: http://www.ebuild.co.uk/topic/16812-high-voltage-power-cable-passing-over-extension/page__hl__overhead

 

So extension is now up, and scaffolding has all been removed and I now want the damn cables removed (11Kv) as they're still a liability if I wanted to start fishing from the balcony or the kids decided to fly a kite from the garden. There is/was a wayleave agreement but this was acknowledged to be void as it mentions parties that no longer reside/own the respective lands that are impacted by the cables. Badly worded in the 1970s, but good in my favour now. So I've just informed the power company that I want them to start the (no doubt lengthy) process of removing them. They'd already indicated 2 years ago that they *could* underground them in an adjacent field around my property to the adjacent sub station.

 

Seems this has been discuseed a few times on ebuild and BH, e.g.

 

 

 

but in most cases it appears it's the self builder having to cough up. I'm sure they will try and come back to me with a cost I have to meet, but as there is no valid agreement between both parties I don't see how they could expect me to pay.  Not involved any legal bods yet and don't wish to if I can help it.

 

My main question is how long can I be expected to wait for them to actually start the work? I thought I had previously read somewhere that legally they have to have the work completed within 12months after agreement has been made that the work is to be undertaken, but I can't find that article now. Is there a legal boot up the backside that I can rely on, as  no doubt they will drag this out as it's going to be a costly affair as they will have to underground around 500m. 

 

I did already refused entry for one of their contracted tree cutters to prune some of the trees on my plot as I knew they would sit on my request even longer if they had managed to prune the trees to industry guidelines.  I don't like playing difficult but I may be in a better position if my trees are about to take down their lines (I better get by PV batteries ordered!). Although I expect they can get a legal order to prune them if needed.

 

Thanks, 

 

OB

 

 

 

[StructuralEngineer]

An 11kv line will give off significant EMF radiation, and if you are under this wire you will no doubt be receiving well above the guideline amount. If you ring/email the national grid emf helpline and ask them to tell you what the EMF radiation level is at your property, this might set in motion a process whereby you can get it moved asap.

[Onoff]

I wonder if there's anything in the ESQCR 2002 (as it's statutory) you could use to expedite things? Are they high enough above the ground for example? 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/contents/made

 

Have the poles got signs on them etc. Anything however small is worth taking to them via email etc. Rather than be seen to fall foul of statute they might elect to do what you want.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Onoff

[oranjeboom]

14 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I wonder if there's anything in the ESQCR 2002 (as it's statutory) you could use to expedite things? Are they high enough above the ground for example? 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/contents/made

 

Have the poles got signs on them etc. Anything however small is worth taking to them via email etc. Rather than be seen to fall foul of statute they might elect to do what you want.

Thanks @Onoff - yes, I went over that meticulously when I had my first run in with them. I even noted that one of the poles was slightly angled - to no avail. I may have a case with the substation which is housed in a small victorian brick structure - part of the roof has missing tiles and the brickwork on the gable end is pretty buggered and all of the guttering is long gone. I've often seen squirrels go in there....fried squirrel anyone? They would need access to my property to rectify that.

 

Seems NI guidelines state 5m clearance for trees: http://www.nienetworks.co.uk/safety/farmers-checklist/tree-cutting/tree-clearances but it seems in the UK as a whole there are no minimum clearances, just 'guidelines'.  If I refuse for pruning they have statutory powers to do so in any case. But hopefully they will see sense before then!

 

 

Thanks @StructuralEngineer I'll have a read through http://www.emfs.info/sources/overhead/specific/11-kv/ which seems quite useful.

 

[Onoff]

Nudge, nudge..... 

[ProDave]

I'm confused,

 

You knew about the lines, you knew about the invalid wayleave, but carried on and built close to them (no doubt with a lot of difficulty) but only now you are finished are you actually asking for them to be moved?

[oranjeboom]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I'm confused,

 

You knew about the lines, you knew about the invalid wayleave, but carried on and built close to them (no doubt with a lot of difficulty) but only now you are finished are you actually asking for them to be moved?

I  think it's all in the ebuild thread, but to save you reading that, a quick summary. I have to admit I thought the powerlines would have been dealt with at the planning approval stage and/or architect / building inspector. It was only when I started looking at scaffolding and measurements that I noted how close we would come. None of the scaffolders who came to quote though gave a sh*t about their proximity. In any case, I notified the DNO, they eventually came out to cloak/sleeve the lines (after various cockups on their side) only to cock-up again and realise when they came on site that they couldn't sleeve the cables because they were 11kv! After I'd sent them pics, ID nos of the substation and poles etc. Totally clueless bunch of ignoramus muppets. And this was 2 weeks before the SIPs arrived. No way could I postpone it all as I could foresee them taking months to take any action (and they'd already used up their meagre budget. DNO is now another foreign owned entity with minimum return ££ to invest in UK) After careful negotiation with the DNO, I proceeded to get the scaffolding up and spent a small fortune on warning signs, tape etc etc. There was no way I wanted any injuries on my site! During this kerfuffle with the ignoramus DNO muppets we agreed that the wayleave agreement was complete crap. So the build went ahead but even during the build the muppet DNO had a panic attack when their contracted tree pruner reported back to them about the scaffolding. He was just doing his job, but it sent alarm bells ringing even though I told some bimbo on the phone that everything had been signed off by the DNO previously. Computer system says no and I had a road full of DNO crews to assess the situation. Luckily I still had the original DNO paperwork and that sent them on their way again. 

 

So I didn't want to ruffle their feathers until well after the build  was completed externally before I started enquiring about the overhead cables again.

[Ferdinand]

I do not think I have a huge amount to add to this. You may be off the common process map for resolving these situations.

 

I would probably try talking to the wayleaves department at some stage (but see below), and exploring how one gets equipment moved if it is there without permission.

 

14 hours ago, oranjeboom said:

There is/was a wayleave agreement but this was acknowledged to be void as it mentions parties that no longer reside/own the respective lands that are impacted by the cables.

Are you sure that that is the case? Depends on succession rules, and in my case it was the Wayleave Agreement signed by my Uncle in 195x (and the property had changed ownership 3 times since within the family) that let me just tell them to move the High Voltage line (after giving 12 months notice of my intention, then 3 months notice to move it). Ours was a high voltage out-and-return on several pairs of poles, with similar on neighbouring fields both sides, and they dug up the best part of a mile of road, some of it very busy former A-road, to put it underground and run through the new estate. Must have saved us a fortune.

 

At some point you will have to tell them to move it, or come to an agreement that will involve one or both parties spending money, but that may make them apply for a "necessary wayleave" - in which case you could be in legal schtuck. At some stage your MP or local media may become an option.

 

Given the amounts of money potentially involved (high 4 figures to low 5 figures?), I think I would want a consultation with a relevant solicitor first as to the status of the agreement. Depending on the content of your agreement it may be to your advantage that it is not void. I think I could find such a solicitor via an infrastructure consultancy.

 

Or have a conversation and then cut a deal without legal advice. They will, however, deal with these every day so you may be entering a game of poker alone having experience only of ludo.

 

I wonder if @Mr Punter has any experience of these? He is on a larger scale than me, so perhaps delegates .

 

Best of luck.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Ferdinand

[oranjeboom]

Thanks @Ferdinand. I've actually been dealing with the wayleave office at the aformentioned DNO. Very amenable and is putting together recommendations for their planning dept - no indication yet how long that takes. i;ll wait to see how this progresses without the involvement of a legal team. As for a "necessary wayleave" I don't think that is going to be possible on the grounds of safety. IIRC the cables are 8m from ground level in the back garden which isn;t that high when you;ve got kids climbing trees (well not that high hopefully). The other big issue is that there is an adjacent industrial yard that also has the cables drooping over there yard which I recall the DNO guy commenting about on his last visit.

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

(after giving 12 months notice of my intention, then 3 months notice to move it).

 

Were these your timelines that you forced on them or are these 'expected' timelines for this sort of thing?

[Ferdinand]

5 hours ago, oranjeboom said:

Were these your timelines that you forced on them or are these 'expected' timelines for this sort of thing?

 

Let me just check ... are you dealing with poles on your land or just oversailing cables? The existence of an agreement to me implies the latter.

 

Sorry for the supplementary questions ... you must feel like the Aprime Minister On a Wednesday .

 

[Update: Aha. I see from your previous thread that the poles are just not quite on your land, which makes the existence of a Wayleave Agreement strange - to my understanding at least. Are you sure it is not an Easement? If this is correct, then the action may be needed by the person who owns the land and has the Wayleave.]

 

For us, Notice periods were specified in the wayleave agreement, though there may have been some statutory rule involved as well. Would have to dig quite a bit to find the scan perhaps. They asked us to work with them, which was not a problem as we were selling with Outline.

 

I take it you have a copy of yours by now? Can you post a pic or the text? Ours was very short, only a couple of pages. 

 

I have no idea whether it can be deemed that building close to a cable such that it becomes ‘unsafe’ can leave a civil liability for moving it.

 

F

Edited April 19, 2018 by Ferdinand

[oranjeboom]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Let me just check ... are you dealing with poles on your land or just oversailing cables? The existence of an agreement to me implies the latter.

 

Sorry for the supplementary questions ... you must feel like the Aprime Minister On a Wednesday .

 

[Update: Aha. I see from your previous thread that the poles are just not quite on your land, which makes the existence of a Wayleave Agreement strange - to my understanding at least. Are you sure it is not an Easement? If this is correct, then the action may be needed by the person who owns the land and has the Wayleave.]

 

For us, Notice periods were specified in the wayleave agreement, though there may have been some statutory rule involved as well. Would have to dig quite a bit to find the scan perhaps. They asked us to work with them, which was not a problem as we were selling with Outline.

 

I take it you have a copy of yours by now? Can you post a pic or the text? Ours was very short, only a couple of pages. 

 

I have no idea whether it can be deemed that building close to a cable such that it becomes ‘unsafe’ can leave a civil liability for moving it.

 

F

You were up early! Yes, just oversailing cables with 2 poles just outside the boundary (1 in substation next door and the other in the field next door). Have tried to find the wayleave agreement, but of course can't locate it in my 'filing' system here in the static. I do recall it mentioned access to my land for maintenance purposes etc, not that really helps in determining whether its wayleave or easement. I'm pretty sure there was no mention of notice periods in there though. once I locate it I will post a scan.

 

Any update I get from the DNO, I will also post on here for future reference. Thanks!

[recoveringbuilder]

Hi @oranjeboom, just been reading over this thread and wondering how it eventually panned out, the reason for my interest is that we have a plot we are currently marketing which has cables over sailing it, several interested parties have viewed but it always comes down to the overhead cable, council planning department won’t allow a house to be built further forward on the plot because it would be out of line with existing buildings so it looks like we will have to try and have the cable removed, we have never signed a way leave for them and the land has been ours since 1992 , I’m really asking where do I start with this?

[Ferdinand]

I'm afraid it can take a couple of years, @Christine Walker, so your PP may expire or become less valuable as your position weakens as the time you have left on the PP shortens.

 

Various thoughts, which may or may not help.

 

You get it started either by talking to them, or by giving them notice to remove it.

 

Other options are going for Detailed to lengthen the PP if you are Outline, or reapplying later.

 

Buyers may be happy with an admission from the DNO that they will remove it, and a timescale. Mine were.

 

Ferdinand

 

[recoveringbuilder]

Thanks @Ferdinand, there’s no problem with the pp running out because both plots were on the same application and one house has been built, I’ve been looking up SP energy website but I can’t seem to find a department that I would contact regarding this, they don’t make it easy to navigate!

[Ferdinand]

20 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Thanks @Ferdinand, there’s no problem with the pp running out because both plots were on the same application and one house has been built, I’ve been looking up SP energy website but I can’t seem to find a department that I would contact regarding this, they don’t make it easy to navigate!

 

Try just phoning  up the main number and asking (?) That is how I started.

 

What does your circs do to a CIL claim on the other plot by a future self builder if the build has started? (Aside)

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Ferdinand

[recoveringbuilder]

10 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Try just phoning  up the main number and asking (?) That is how I started.

 

What does your circs do to a CIL claim on the other plot by a future self builder if the build has started? (Aside)

 

 

There’s no CIL here! 

[Ferdinand]

33 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

There’s no CIL here! 

 

Good

Edited September 12, 2020 by Ferdinand

[oranjeboom]

Hello Christine, after the network provider's usual ineptitude they were removed. I had to push them for timelines now and again and waiting for their budgets to be approved. We came back after one summer break (must have been last summer) to find they were gone. No idea how they did it as I was not consulted for access etc (poles were just over the fence line) and no damage done to garden or house.

 

In my case I did not push them after my scaffolding went up (I didn't want them interfering with the build!) and that must have been up for 2years at least...). I think that once they know you want to get rid of them and that there is no wayleave agreement, they really need to get the ball rolling. I think if prospective buyers know that they will be removed (in writing) then that would placate most.

 

SP = Scottish power? Try Carol Davies. Wayleave Officer at SP. I don't have her phone, but she's on LinkedIn.

•  

[recoveringbuilder]

So  a good few weeks after me first contacting the wayleaves department and asking if they had a wayleave for the oversailing wires I got a phone call from them this morning, they appear to not have one! Chap on the phone said oh I’ll send you out forms to sign for a way leave! Eh no! I won’t be doing that, I explained that there would be a house being built under them to which he started going on about a section 37 from the government, phone call ended with him saying he would email me some details, the details are he wants a way leave signed! Where do I go from here?

[Ferdinand]

Mine - working *with* the wayleave, was 12 months notice of intention to give notice, then 3 months notice for them to do it. But I had poles.

 

Without the notice? No idea - but perhaps allow 1 to 2 years.

 

Though mine was about 100m of our and back cable highish voltage routes that fed most of town, and they had to dig up about a mile of alternative routes half and half under farm tracks and the former A38 for the new route.

 

F

 

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, recoveringbuilder said:

So  a good few weeks after me first contacting the wayleaves department and asking if they had a wayleave for the oversailing wires I got a phone call from them this morning, they appear to not have one! Chap on the phone said oh I’ll send you out forms to sign for a way leave! Eh no! I won’t be doing that, I explained that there would be a house being built under them to which he started going on about a section 37 from the government, phone call ended with him saying he would email me some details, the details are he wants a way leave signed! Where do I go from here?

 

You need to get taken seriously.

 

Talk to them about giving notice to move it off your land. Perhaps ask them on a query what the procedure would be, and how much notice you need to give. And ask for alternatives suggestions that they would propose to meet both your requirements.

 

That should start it moving and get you noticed in their system.

 

if you haven't. you also need to get to grips with Necessary Wayleaves and the rules around them.

[recoveringbuilder]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

 

You need to get taken seriously.

 

Talk to them about giving notice to move it off your land. Perhaps ask them on a query what the procedure would be, and how much notice you need to give. And ask for alternatives suggestions that they would propose to meet both your requirements.

 

That should start it moving and get you noticed in their system.

 

if you haven't. you also need to get to grips with Necessary Wayleaves and the rules around them.

Thanks, I’ve had a quick read through the government necessary wayleaves information, it looks like it could be a long process and if they decide to go down that route would the ministers award them this even although it is our land , has been for 30 years and they haven’t had a way leave for all that time and would hurt us financially because no house could be built with the high voltage wires above it, really doesn’t seem very fair. I need to pull on my big girl pants, take a deep breath and get started!

[Ferdinand]

11 hours ago, recoveringbuilder said:

Thanks, I’ve had a quick read through the government necessary wayleaves information, it looks like it could be a long process and if they decide to go down that route would the ministers award them this even although it is our land , has been for 30 years and they haven’t had a way leave for all that time and would hurt us financially because no house could be built with the high voltage wires above it, really doesn’t seem very fair. I need to pull on my big girl pants, take a deep breath and get started!

 

That's the rub.

 

They may use that as a threat 'if you don't agree', but then your levers are that they will have costs and you do not know the outcome. IMO it pays to work with them, after you have established what you want and they are actually talking. But experience is not constant.

 

Like a lot of other things, it can be a bot of a game of poker and 'who cares most', depending on all the circs.

It could potentially be why you got a better deal on the plot than you might have otherwise.

 

From accounts here, power distribution companies seem to be getting tougher in their attitude.

 

Beyond that I do not know really - mine was back in 2012.

 

(Aside: I do wonder if at some stage this will land as a Consumer Issue on Radio 4, as leasehold has - as it is a bit obscure and unpredictable at consumer level.)

 

F

[jamieled]

I'll just add another experience to the mix here. We have a 33kv OH line running across our land. It's a pain in terms of managing trees. When we acquired the land, there was no wayleave or deed.

 

It became pretty clear that the cost of the DNO either rerouting or undergrounding the cable was going to be very high and there was next to no chance of it happening due to the importance of the line to them. They would have not thought twice about a necessary wayleave.

 

Anyway, my points are that 1) it might help to understand their costs and the importance of the line to them (which it sounds like you're doing) and 2) Get good legal/land advice. There are precedents for compensation where planning has been granted on a bit of land that a power line preventing the construction. Our experience is that professional advice has helped a lot and the DNO's often have a statutory requirement to pay for this.

[oranjeboom]

I kept it very cordial with UKPN, never threatened them. The agreement that was in place for my plot was null and void so that helped. When a UKPN tree surgeon turned up one day to prune the trees around the cables, I simply refused access. Which helped things along as it showed I wasn't going along with any delaying tactics.

 

In the end, I went ahead with my build with the live HV overhead cables but was just under the minimum permissable 'safe distances', though it was bloody close. I also did most of the high work myself including the ridge tiles and rooflights. Scariest bit was with the scaffolders, but they were very professional and careful but I would never have forgiven myself if something had gone awry. I had warning tape and signs up everywhere and physical barrier to prevent any stupidity!

 

I had informed UKPN that I wanted them removed so it was just a matter of time and in the end they did so - I came back from holiday and they were gone after they had undergrounded them in the field next to my plot. So as long as you inform them you could still potentially start your build with the knowledge that they will be gone sooner or later. As long as you don't have to have open windows for the cables to pass through! Of course you need to be sure that the cables will be removed at some point in the future.

 

Just found the dates - it took 3.5yrs from me contacting them initially to cables being removed. But of course I was able to proceed with the build in the meantime so didn't really hold me up and therefore I wasn't that pushy. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by oranjeboom