Strewth, mortar dyes are expensive.

[epsilonGreedy]

Having read through ChemCraft's Guide to mortar pigments  I understand that 1kg of pigment to 25kg of cement is typical. This equates to about +30% on top of my budget for cement. Does this sound about right or have I misplaced a decimal point?

[vivienz]

Hardly on the same scale, but OH was using coloured mortar in some paving he was laying and he complained bitterly about the price back then.  It seems that nothing has changed, unfortunately.

[Russell griffiths]

Don’t do it. 

They are a pain to use, one cockup and it will stand out terribly 

i thought you were looking into ready mix mortar 

 

remember, keep it simple., the more straightforward you make this the easier it will go

 

if you are going to trust a brickwork gang to mix it and gauge the colouring I think you will be onto a loser before you even start. 

 

[bassanclan]

They are expensive. You can get basic standard bostik dyes from merchants which are much cheaper, but have less choice

[Brickie]

What kind of tone are you looking for? 

Is it a particular look you’ve seen that works with the brick you’ve selected?

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Brickie said:

What kind of tone are you looking for? 

Is it a particular look you’ve seen that works with the brick you’ve selected?

 

 

A sand color to match buff bricks like this though the yellow is less vibrant in reality 

[epsilonGreedy]

I understand from the Chemcraft doc that dye usage can be reduced by using pale grey or white cement with sand introducing the base colour.

[Roundtuit]

Do you have a choice of sand colour available locally?  We selected a pale sand and used white cement for a similar effect. 

[bassanclan]

You might have to fingers around, but you will be able to get yellow building sand. Use white cement (2-3 times the price) and you will be somewhere near that colour.

I would highly recommend this approach over using dyes, as the batches will never match.

 

I have a tin of this https://www.wickes.co.uk/Bostik-Cementone-Cement+Mortar-Dye---Buff-1kg/p/154066?CAWELAID=120135120000007222&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=52608956144&CATCI=aud-305024815433:pla-301696734958&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsriks8iQ2gIVFmp-Ch1QVAk1EAQYASABEgIv0PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKqB17jIkNoCFRF7fgodOqkA_g which should be aout £5 from a merchant 

[Brickie]

From that picture I’m not sure there’s any dye in it at all. Maybe get a couple of sample panels built in 1:6 (cement:sand) & 1:1:6 (cement:lime:sand) & see how they look after a few weeks when the mortar has toned down a bit. 

Using hydrated lime will be far cheaper than messing around with dyes,and may give you the look you’re aiming for. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Brickie
Typo

[Russell griffiths]

As @Brickie said that panel you showed looks like it doesn’t have a mortar pigment in it, just a different choice of sand and mix used. 

Ave you taken your sample to the batching plant to see if they do a similar one. 

[Gone West]

9 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

Do you have a choice of sand colour available locally?  We selected a pale sand and used white cement for a similar effect. 

+1

I've always used white cement for mortar.

[epsilonGreedy]

9 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

Do you have a choice of sand colour available locally?  We selected a pale sand and used white cement for a similar effect.

 

 

I have not got that far yet, the Cambridgeshire county border is not so far away. Where did you source your sand?

[epsilonGreedy]

4 hours ago, bassanclan said:

You might have to fingers around, but you will be able to get yellow building sand. Use white cement (2-3 times the price) and you will be somewhere near that colour.

I would highly recommend this approach over using dyes, as the batches will never match.

 

 

Costwise dye or white cement cost about the same though I would prefer to use traditional mortar ingredients. I have been wondering if dyed mortar might change colour as the sun bleaches component elements of the dye.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Brickie said:

From that picture I’m not sure there’s any dye in it at all. Maybe get a couple of sample panels built in 1:6 (cement:sand) & 1:1:6 (cement:lime:sand) & see how they look after a few weeks when the mortar has toned down a bit.

 

 

Ok interesting to hear you think that photo example is dye free. At the recent NEC show the manager of a handcut fancy bricks company recommend a weaker mortar mix than usual for his bricks. I think he said 1:1:4:4 cement/lime/sharp-sand/normal-sand which gives more options to create the right base colour without a dye.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

Ave you taken your sample to the batching plant to see if they do a similar one.

 

 

I am erring away from premix batched mortar since we last discussed this subject because the minimum site delivery quantities mandate laying 1200 bricks in 48 hours and this would be problematic for me. 

[Brickie]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I think he said 1:1:4:4 cement/lime/sharp-sand/normal-sand which gives more options to create the right base colour without a dye.

Using sharp as well as soft will indeed give you more options for variation in tone but will be an absolute b####r to lay with. I’d question that ratio too-you’d only have 1 part cement to 8 parts sand (sharp & soft combined.) 

To me,I’d say you’re overthinking this. Get a couple of sample panels done as mentioned earlier & go from there. If you’re really dead keen on a very specific tone then your masonry could be built using standard mortar & raked out for re-pointing st the end,though this will be considerably dearer. 

[epsilonGreedy]

19 minutes ago, Brickie said:

Using sharp as well as soft will indeed give you more options for variation in tone but will be an absolute b####r to lay with.

 

 

Warning duly noted.

 

20 minutes ago, Brickie said:

I’d question that ratio too-you’d only have 1 part cement to 8 parts sand (sharp & soft combined.) 

 

 

This worried me too. What is so different about handcut bricks that requires such a soft mix! I get the basic notion of degrees of hardness in mortar and that harder is needed below dpc but matching mortar hardness to bricks or blocks is not a technical concept I can comprehend. At the end of the day I will go for your and NHBC recommendations e.g. 1:1:6 unless the supplier of fancy bricks can offer a more convincing argument for very soft mortar. It was very noisy at the show stand and so not conducive to a deep techno Q&A session.

 

One bonus of selecting hand cut bricks is that a prospective customer gets an offer of a factory tour & drinks in an region where rich Home Country people go for a long-weekend in a boutique hotel.

 

30 minutes ago, Brickie said:

To me,I’d say you’re overthinking this.

 

 

Most likely.

 

I am trying to comprehend the whole build in detail before I start so when the build clock starts ticking I will not be prating around exploring different options on site.

[Ferdinand]

If you rely on sand for colour, make sure that each undivided visual section uses a consistent colour and buy enough in each purchase to cover that ... because they will not necessarily be consistent over time.

 

And buy enough ! My garden wall at the Little brown Bungalow deliberately used red sand from a particular local BM that was redder tan everybody else’s sand, and it caused a problem when we ran out at a weekend when they were closed.

 

The render in this pic is entirely coloured by the sand, and uses normal cement.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Ferdinand

[bassanclan]

If you are dying the mortar a light colour as shown in your picture, you will probably need white cement AND dye, if not it will be grey or muddy, so a double whammy of cost

[Brickie]

Depends very much on the sand,as that is the greatest part of the mix. Avoid Rugby cement like the plague,btw. 

Are you still planning to build yourself?

If so,I’d definitely advertise locally for a semi retired brickie to come & give you a hand a couple of days a week. 

It will definitely be money well spent. 

[Roundtuit]

On 29/03/2018 at 08:35, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I have not got that far yet, the Cambridgeshire county border is not so far away. Where did you source your sand?

 

 Our sand came from Frimstone, who operate around west Norfolk/north Cambs I believe.  I think we had 'Crimplesham soft' but I'd have to check. On the scale of things, the additional cost of white cement won't be a deal breaker if it's the look you want.