Can planning permission mandate a specific supplier?

[epsilonGreedy]

Can a planning department be so specific about materials used in construction to the point where in effect a specific commercial supplier is mandated, though not named?

 

My question actually relates to Welsh slate. A conversation with a supplier of welsh slate at the NEC show highlighted that all sources of welsh slate production are now owned by a single company based in Ireland. This company effectively controls the market price.

 

I am wondering if the commercial situation will weigh in my favour when I have a chat with my local conservation officer about cheaper alternatives to the specified welsh slate.

[Jeremy Harris]

The official answer is that, in the strictest legal interpretation, no, they cannot.  However, planners can mandate a specific type of slate, and if that can only be obtained from one supplier then effectively they can mandate this. 

 

I've always felt that any such restriction should be capable of challenge, wherever it can be proved to be, in effect, a local authority specifying a single supplier, on the the basis that it constitutes interference in the free market, something that local authorities are not allowed to do,

 

However, there are some exceptions that show that they can get away with this, particularly where the planning authority happens to be a National Park.

 

Always worth a challenge though.  I've known people provide mis-labelled samples for approval as a part of a planning condition in order to get around it, for example getting two or three samples of slate and labelling the one they want to use as being one they know the planners have approved in the past, even though it's something else...............

[Dudda]

Yes. I've had to use this company several times (at least 6 that come to mind) as it was specified as a condition of planning. To be fair while expensive they're a good company to work with. One person here flew over and visited the quarry as we had really unusual large slates that had to be specially made. It was like €90 a slate!!! On another job we managed to source reclaimed slates and didn't have to use them.

[StructuralEngineer]

Interesting one. Planning doesn't have this kind of authority, so if you use something that looks like Welsh slate that should be fine. If they pull you up on it, I'd wager you could easily win if you challenge it.

[Dudda]

8 minutes ago, StructuralEngineer said:

Interesting one. Planning doesn't have this kind of authority, so if you use something that looks like Welsh slate that should be fine. If they pull you up on it, I'd wager you could easily win if you challenge it.

You can't if it's conservation or protected or protected area which is when they usually specify it. They can specify a certain slate but the issue is only one company now make this slate. They don't specify you have to use this company it's just you're now forced to because they are currently the only one supplying it. We've tried on several projects with several planners as it is a huge cost implication.

 

Options to reduce cost:

Source reclaimed slates. Even slates that are 150 years old will survive another 50 years without issue. 
Get thicker slates. The thinner the slate the more expensive it is as it has to be a higher quality and cut thinner. This is unusual as you'd expect thicker to be more expensive. You'll have to talk to your engineer as increasing the roof timbers by 20mm or more might be required as the thickest cheapest slates are very heavy but this will still work out cheaper.

 

EDIT: what we do on projects where we're afraid of this happening is propose Blue Bangor slates to the front elevation and Spanish to the rear on the drawings we submit for planning. They usually accept this and it's cheaper than them conditioning Blue Bangor which implies the whole roof.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Dudda

[Ferdinand]

23 minutes ago, StructuralEngineer said:

Interesting one. Planning doesn't have this kind of authority, so if you use something that looks like Welsh slate that should be fine. If they pull you up on it, I'd wager you could easily win if you challenge it.

 

I thought there was an Appeal case that had overturned the single source requirement in a National Park several years ago. Lakeland to Wales?

 

Was it mentioned on ebuild?

[epsilonGreedy]

13 minutes ago, Dudda said:

Options to reduce cost:

Source reclaimed slates. Even slates that are 150 years old will survive another 50 years without issue. 

 

 

The same chappie at the NEC promoting new welsh slate spent a few minutes explaining the problems of reclaimed slate e.g. the original worn nail holes will be enlarged and so cannot be reused, this in turn means a different fixing pattern which either wastes slate or worse, close tile boundaries on different rows leading to leaks.

[Dudda]

You'll get the odd slate with an enlarged nail hole but its rare. Yes you'll have more wastage with reclaimed slates but it is cheaper. The trick is to buy slates that are the right size and match your battens to the slates. It takes a bit of figuring out but it's fine. I though this company even sell reclaimed slates? Sure they advertise on their website how you can resell them and the great resell value they have. That sales guy was only trying to earn commission I'd say

[ProDave]

We had this sort of anyway.

 

The planners made it clear they wanted us to use a slate roof. I made it clear I did not (both houses wither side of us for 2 or more houses are concrete tiled)

 

In the end they said they would "accept" Marley Edgemere Riven finished concrete tiles. So that is what went on the plans and that is what was approved.

 

So they didn't strictly enforce a single product with a planning condition,. rather the discussions during the planning application made it clear that was the only concrete tile they would accept.

[ToughButterCup]

Hmmm.

Anyone tested this? By buying a 'non-mandated' or 'unacceptable' product?

As in you only know what you can't do when you try it on. Just like we all do all the time. 

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, recoveringacademic said:

Hmmm.

Anyone tested this? By buying a 'non-mandated' or 'unacceptable' product?

 

 

I feel like challenging my conservation officer to walk 20 paces away and then distinguish which of my hands holds the artificial slate sample. This stuff impressed me at the NEC show last weekend.

 

http://www.greysartstone.co.uk/products/reproduction-slate/slate-overiew.html

 

In fact for the first decade or two it would look more genuine than freshly mined welsh slate which given its cost must be hand polished by Irish maidens before dispatch.

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I feel like challenging my conservation officer to walk 20 paces away and then distinguish which of my hands holds the artificial slate sample. [...]

 

And I bet ours won't be able to tell the difference between French and British oak (for our shakes)

In fact, neither would I in a 'blind tasting' as it were.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, Dudda said:

I though this company even sell reclaimed slates? Sure they advertise on their website how you can resell them and the great resell value they have. That sales guy was only trying to earn commission I'd say

 

 

He became irksome as the conversation developed his attitude was, I know everything about slate and have a monopolistic control over the supply so don't whinge about the £70 / sqm cost.

[Mr Punter]

Have a chat to someone at SIGA slate and they will advise on what will / should be acceptable and may be able to provide evidence that their solution has / will stand up in Court.

[Temp]

Last time this came up I posted a link to a story about a visitor centre on a mountain somewhere. There was a fuss because the builder hadn't used local slate and the council said they weren't able to mandate use of local slate because of EU competition law.

 

I've not been able to google it when I tried just now but will have another go.

[Temp]

The building was the summit building on Snowdon..

 

Previous thread from the ebuild forum..

 

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/topic/16443-planning-conditions-getting-one-amended/

 

The link I posted in #16 doesn't work but there are extracts in #18 reproduced below..

 

Under European law the Authority cannot insist that local people use local materials only. The Authority encourages people to use natural materials wherever possible and preferably from local sources. In the case of roofing slate, the Authority places a condition stipulating local slate or an equivalent in terms of colour, texture and weathering characteristics. Up to the 1980s it is true that the Authority required only Welsh slate but it lost a legal case and the advice that we received from solicitors in this case is that we would be in breach of European treaty principles if we stipulated in the contract that the contractor must use local materials only.

[Temp]

Here is the excuse the builders gave..

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/jul/03/ethicalliving.architecture

 

But while it may have a Welsh name, Hafod Eryri's roof - the highest in a nation that once proudly boasted that it had roofed the world with its famous slate - is actually made from granite blocks imported from Portugal. The decision provoked outrage in

Wales, even though granite from nearby Blaenau Ffestiniog was later found for the walls and the floor.

 

Aneurin Phillips, the SNPA's chief executive, says he too was "very disappointed" about the roof, even though two-thirds of the building materials have still been sourced locally: "Unfortunately, [the site's builders] Carillion, who shouldered the risk of completing this building, decided on the source of the stone and said it wanted to source it quickly for contractual reasons. Local stone was more expensive, but my understanding is that local suppliers also could not commit to the delivery timetable required by Carillion and shoulder any cost from failing to deliver on time."

[Dudda]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I feel like challenging my conservation officer to walk 20 paces away and then distinguish which of my hands holds the artificial slate sample. This stuff impressed me at the NEC show last weekend.

 

http://www.greysartstone.co.uk/products/reproduction-slate/slate-overiew.html

 

In fact for the first decade or two it would look more genuine than freshly mined welsh slate which given its cost must be hand polished by Irish maidens before dispatch.

The problem isn't really if you can tell the difference or not, it's about being true to the original. This is particularly the case in conservation. If you're restoring a building that's listed or protected you should put in cast iron downpipes and not cast aluminium downpipes even though they look exactly the same as it's the principle of restoring with original materials.

 

On a new house in a conservation area it's not as clear cut and some places are more relaxed and allow you use modern materials that look like originals be it slates, downpipes, sash windows, etc.

 

Personally I'd be strongly in favor of using original authentic materials in listed or protected buildings and agree with the planners in such a manner. It's the principle of protecting our heritage for future generations.

 

On new builds I don't think you should be forced to use original materials as it's not an original building but a fake original building so fake original materials should be acceptable if used right. The problem is they're often not used right which is why planners insist on original materials.

 

 

EDIT: unrelated but something I want to highlight. The tiles in your link have a 25 year guarantee. Be sure and get written confirmation that it's a colour and structural guarantee and not just a structural guarantee. I've recently re-roofed a building where the tiles lost their colour after 8-10 years. The roof wasn't leaking so was fine under the structural guarantee and not a defect therefore the manufacturer didn't want anything to do with the problem. You can have a roof that looks crap but is still waterproof and structurally sound.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Dudda

[epsilonGreedy]

18 minutes ago, Dudda said:

On a new house in a conservation area it's not as clear cut and some places are more relaxed and allow you use modern materials that look like originals be it slates, downpipes, sash windows, etc.

 

 

In my case the condition applies to a new build.

[epsilonGreedy]

5 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I've always felt that any such restriction should be capable of challenge, wherever it can be proved to be, in effect, a local authority specifying a single supplier, on the the basis that it constitutes interference in the free market, something that local authorities are not allowed to do,

 

 

I am beginning to wonder who governs the governors of conservation.

 

Take a local GP who is a far more highly trained and respected figure. Any disgruntled patient can drag a GP down a path of malpractice woe without paying a fee and yet these conservation officers can kill a building project on a personal whim or a debatable interpretation of history.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Have a chat to someone at SIGA slate and they will advise on what will / should be acceptable and may be able to provide evidence that their solution has / will stand up in Court.

 

 

Thanks for this pointer and SIGA are near enough to visit in person. They have an excellent demo project using artificial slate, how could any Conservation Officer object to this!

 

http://www.sigaslate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/HERITAGEIMAGE.png

 

 

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

He became irksome as the conversation developed his attitude was, I know everything about slate and have a monopolistic control over the supply so don't whinge about the £70 / sqm cost.

 

Irksome. A wonderful word that I had forgotten. TO be used at every opportunity.

 

Quote

Take a local GP who is a far more highly trained and respected figure. Any disgruntled patient can drag a GP down a path of malpractice woe without paying a fee and yet these conservation officers can kill a building project on a personal whim or a debatable interpretation of history.

 

WOuld that not be the normal process.

 

PLanning Appeal. 

 

Or

 

Planning Officer then Line Manager then Head of Planning then Local and National Procedure and Ombudsman.

 

Or

 

Councillor or MP to try and short circuit it.

 

Or

 

Judicial Review within 3 months (also applicable to each appeal stage within 3 months of that decision?).

 

Or

 

High Court action.

 

ANd much of it is disfunctional from the point of view of solving the presenting problem.

 

AN irksome system.

 

F

 

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Ferdinand

[curlewhouse]

Here is a thought - and gets you thicker , nicer looking slate and at *half the price* - recycled Welsh slate. That's what we've done. We were specified to use only Welsh slate and after having a near heart attack when I discovered the price (which is plain profiteering when identical slate can be shipped from Canada who have similar wages to us, and costs thousands of gallons of fuel oil to get get here for far less), I looked at second hand. I also used it in my application saying how "green" it was to reuse slate. The price turned out at 50% of new and we got really thick slate compared to the modern stuff. It was re cut to size, and because it's already weathered looks lovely straight away.  What's also nice is I know exactly what buildings it came from and I did the same with our stone walls, so ticking lots of "green" boxes but happily also slashing the cost (our stone came from a convent school!)

Edited April 14, 2018 by curlewhouse